And so in your practice, give us a sense of how you were looking over the horizon and how did AI first appear to you and what did you first do to examine it and then

adopt it? So it's actually been about 11 years since we started playing around with AI.

in our immigration practice, and we were building what is, a lot of people don't even think of as AI at this point, these expert systems that were, you know, basically, I'm not, I am, by the way, I come from, I have a political science degree.

I'm not a, you know, I didn't come from a tech background.

There are a lot of lawyers who have those, and some of them are pretty, are pretty amazing, but I have always been pretty good at figuring out how to make technology work for me, but not being somebody who could just like go out and code.

And so what was going on in 2015 was the initial development of these no-code and low-code expert system platforms.

And basically the way to think about those is just decision trees on steroids, that you could build out apps that ask questions, you could upload documents, you could essentially take people on these... on these journeys with the way these were set up, where at the end, it would make some kind of assessment for the person, or it would generate a document, or it would do something where somebody got to a conclusion, and that was AI.

So tell us a little bit about that and why that appealed to you, why you thought that was an important thing to do.

So how do you guys come to that agreement or that perspective on, hey, we're going to really focus to make this practical?

Yeah, I think just to take a step back, you and I were chatting a little bit beforehand.

I think I had mentioned that I did a book 30 years ago on technology.

I was one of the first lawyers in the country, well, for the matter of the world, because the first ones were all in the U.S., to have a website.

This was back in June 1994.

I started working on that in 93, and I wrote a book for the ABA.

It was called The Lawyer's Guide to Marketing on the Internet, and it was the first book that the ABA put out about websites for law firms.

Now, I guess when you first got your look at generative AI, how long before you started really hearing any other law firms talking about practical use of generative AI?