[laughs] Yeah.

Um, yeah, the, um, learning the dif- different, uh, types of wood.

I use basswood now, and back then it was just a progression of, "Okay, I can't do that.

Why is it not swimming right?" Um, and the buoyancy to hook, uh, using different hooks is so critical.

Every, every small little, um, nuance of a bait, uh, the angle of a screw eye off or straight, um, the, the weight of the hooks.

Um, it took me a long time to get the right action, um, and placement of the, the lip on, uh, my Wally Pugs, and, um, the right size split rings.

I, I used to put on number 10 split rings on the front, and one little key, guys were saying, "It doesn't work as good as the one you made before." And then I'd find out I'd put a bigger split ring on that one I send them.

Mm-hmm