So why do you think the legislature wanted to do something drastic and say our cap will be half of what it is now? It's not as though they can just spend whatever they want right now.

I mean, to the point that Representative Stan was just making about this was a Senate priority.

And so the politics of this is that with Senator Berger leaving after he lost his primary, this is an attempt to lock into the Constitution what his priorities have been on taxation.

And as Representative Stan pointed out, Constitutional amendments are permanent.

And so it is really an attempt to lock in the legacy of that leader, that person, in a way that will be almost impossible to undo later.

And Representative Stamm used the word risky.

I will also point out for the vast majority of state employees who might look at this at first and say, oh, good, lock me into lower tax rates.

And we know for a fact that's not happening.

Well, and obviously you're here with that vision in mind with the States Forum and the conversations that we're having with their mission is, what do you see as those pathways? What are the conversations you're hearing in loosening that grip that is on our state capitals?

I mean, so the States Forum, I think, is doing a great job of trying to make sure that That the best policy ideas are adopted by a wide variety of people.

Like this is a progressive organization, but they're not like an ideological organization.

Where do we find allies for these best ideas so that we can advance them? And I think that's right.

If you really want to advance good policy, you have to sometimes build unlikely coalitions.

This person, this organization was my enemy on another bill, but today they're going to be my ally on this bill.

And how do you do that? In North Carolina, my current work at the North Carolina Justice Center, we are the primary organization in the state that lobbies on behalf of people, working people, immigrants.

fascinating.