From the very beginning, wa- wa- was it like that wi- with those cigar makers?

I would say it was a little more problematic at the beginning.

[laughs] Uh, when we started the magazine, we began rating cigars like the Wine Spectator rates wines, and that is something that the people in the cigar industry had never seen, and in general, I would say they didn't welcome it.

Uh, there were people who really disputed the idea, didn't like the fact that their cigars weren't scoring 100 points i- in every issue.

I remember one gentleman, uh, who shall remain nameless, uh, said to me, "To appreciate my cigar, you have to smoke a whole box of them." And I looked at him and I said, "You know, you produce a consumer product.

If you're telling me that a consumer has to buy an entire box and smoke the entire cigar b- box before they make a judgment on it, you really don't understand the consumer market.

That first cigar they smoke is the benchmark.

And, you know, it has for, for decades, which is really a testament to-