And I just wonder as someone who runs pregnancy centers and who is in this world, is that a sentiment that you see a lot that really we should not be fighting for the equal protection of babies?

Yes, unfortunately, it's a sentiment that I see a lot.

And it was a surprise to me.

I mean, I definitely did not expect to be in a position where I'm at odds with a lot of people that I consider friends and allies and really admire a lot of the work that they do.

But so much of the pro-life movement and the pregnancy help movement has taken a staunch opposition to the idea of giving the unborn legal protection.

And it's because this idea has gone very far back, that in pro-life laws, and a lot of us just really weren't aware that this is what was happening.

But in pro-life laws over decades, they would identify the pre-born as human and should have equal rights and should be subject to homicide laws.

any other justification for for that for this not being pro-life