What is the biggest blind spot that kind of when you're doing these things and you kind of you know that you only contribute to the small bit, but kind of the small bit could be the most important bit? How do you help them with their testing? And then if that API is important to the front end, how do you guide them through being able to do both at the same time?

Well, first of all, we have to treat APIs with respect.

And I don't think we give them the respect that we should.

Because first of all, they're very complex.

We don't think of them as complex, but we're kind of thinking, yes, in a request, you get a response in a status code.

That's it, right? That's what an API is supposed to do.

But I'll take REST API as the kind of an example because people know that mostly, but this also applies to other things.

How do you kind of, when you're doing all of this and people are seeing all these problems like flakiness, false positives, false negatives, how do you kind of, because you do a lot of coaching, how do you coach them into like, right, let's break this down into something manageable and then figure it out, that manageable thing and solve that manageable thing at a time?