Now it fell to Kurlikowski to reform the agency and clean up the mess caused by the hiring surge.

Thousands of people had been hired, some of whom should not have been hired.

They never really had the kind of oversight that they should.

And part of that is the environment that they work in.

They can work by themselves.

Their nearest backup can be 20 miles away.

Those are circumstances in which if you were going to be involved in corruption, a smuggler could say, well, just stay at the far end of your area for the rest of the night and don't come into this area.

Apprehensions at the border decreased, along with use of force incidents, while the agency hired 100 additional internal affairs investigators.

Walk me through some of those specific tactics that, that, that you're most concerned about.

So you don't approach a vehicle, uh, and make a traffic stop by boxing it in.

Uh, in law enforcement, that would be called a felony stop.

That means that you have probable cause that that person in that car, uh, is wanted for a felony, and that's the kind of tactic that you would use.

All too often, these same tactics are being used, and they're even, uh, not against the target that they were intended.

Uh, the other thing is that law enforcement officers are trained in communities, rural and, uh, suburban and, and city, not to get in front of a vehicle, not to put your hands inside a vehicle.

And yet we see repeatedly, uh, these ICE agents and Border Patrol agents stand in front of the vehicle.

And then we learned, uh, i- in this Houston incident that the officers didn't have body cameras.

Based on what you know about what happened before that interaction, what a- what should have agents done in that case, in those circumstances?

Well, I think what they don't do, and what they should be doing, is that when they're confronted with somebody who is attempting to interfere or attempting to obstruct, they should tell that person, "We're arresting you." Uh, this use of chemical munitions, just bringing out pepper spray, et cetera, just makes little sense.

Police officers deal with these things all the time, uh, and they make a physical arrest, and that actually then deters some other people from getting involved or obstructing.

Uh, but remember, this is a group of people, the Border Patrol in particular, who are completely untrained and unskilled for policing in an urban environment.

What do you think needs to happen so there's not a third citizen killed?

Well, one, the Border Patrol is clearly the, the wrong tool to be leading this effort, to be working in an urban environment, and frankly, the ICE section, the removal section, ERO, uh, they were pretty good at being able to target people who were dangerous, uh, target people with final orders of deportation, uh, and make those arrests.

This walking through, uh, a Walmart and a Home Depot lot, uh, makes little sense, and all you've really done is, one, cause chaos, but you've also pretty much eroded the trust that law enforcement has gained, uh, in the last five years after the murder of George Floyd.

Um, do you see any procedures, law enforcement, basic law enforcement procedures that were followed or not followed?

Well, you do see a, a few problems.

When you go to a protest, and you want to observe, you want to record, you want to voice how you feel about it, when Alex unfortunately kind of intervened when that woman was pushed down, and I'm not condoning what that agent did, it's probably better not to engage.

The other part is, of course, he had a concealed weapons permit.

Uh, DHS has been condemning the fact that he had a gun, but remember, DHS didn't say anything when right-wing protesters brought guns to Charlottesville, uh, one of them bringing the gun out and shooting into the ground.

So having disarmed him, but the shots were almost immediately after the gun was taken from him, so I think there's still more to see.

I'm skeptical of whatever this investigation is, though, and they haven't really defined that.

These people are going to..." When you see five, six, seven guys bumbling around, um, uh, over one protester, not taking him to the ground, I, I'm, I'm just curious what, what level of unprofessionalism and lack of training do you see in all of these, all of these agents? And not just in this case, but across America.

Just talk a little, if you can, about what we've been saying here, uh, and elaborate, if you will, what, what you know about protocols and guidelines and how they may or may not have been followed based on what you see in that video.

We'll take it back to the bigger picture.

Clearly, the Border Patrol is the absolute wrong unit to be bringing into any city environment.

Secretary Ridge, Secretary Chertoff, I- we've all remarked about this, whether it was in Portland, uh, and certainly now.

They're trained to work on the border.

They're trained to work by themselves.

Uh, that's their experience.

Um, c- could you, could you tell us and with your, uh, collective knowledge if someone that was working, uh, in one of your, uh, departments or someone working in the New York City Police Department had fired two shots at the head of a s- car going by at, say, five miles an hour? Um, w- would they most likely be reprimanded or even charged?