Talk us through how his perceived culpability for what happened that day in terms of security and intelligence lapses and the way that he's led the Israeli government response, the- how are they likely to benefit or hinder him and his Likud party in these elections?

So first of all, I can't think about one other case in which a prime minister, after such a colossal fiasco, stays one day in office the day, the morning after.

Netanyahu is now four, three years later, and he's still a leading candidate and might very well be re-elected, which by itself is, is very hard to understand for sure from the outside, but even from within Israel, it's, it's very hard to understand it.

How can it be that the government which is responsible for so many failures and has really zero achievements is still a leading or almost a leading, um, uh, ca- uh, candidate? Very strange.

Now he tries to-

Is this to become Israel's forever war?

war?It seems so if the world will not intervene, this what will happen.

Uh, the ceasefire is totally one-sided in many ways.

what what what do you think is likely to happen to because obviously there is talk and this is obviously particularly amongst netanyahu's allies of removing the population and of calling it voluntary migration that obviously you destroy the conditions of life that sustain any sort of tolerable existence there's no such thing as a as a voluntary migration what what do you think is likely to be the fate of gaza and its people in the next year two three years

You know, Owen, I have a habit now to call my friend, my ex-taxi driver in Gaza every few weeks to see how is he.

He's 63, 64 now, after a stroke.

He lives in the last three years in a tent without electricity, lying on the ground, not healthy.

No electricity, no streaming water.

Who there is now, I can't say that he's starving, but it's not a life of human being.

By all means, not.

the

Gideon Levy, we're gonna have your opening statement now.

Thank you very much.

This couldn't have happened in Israel, that so many people will have so much interest and come to such an evening.

I can't if-- I can't prevent a remark that I didn't plan to say to what Douglas had just said.

To stand here today, eight months after this war started, and to talk only about the Jewish victims, totally ignoring 38,000 people who were killed in those eight months- [audience applauding] totally ignoring the starvation, the destruction, the tens of thousands of children which were killed, tells the whole story.

After this, you almost don't need to continue, because when you don't see the other, when you victimizing yourself and totally ignore the other suffer, the other agony, then really we have no basis here.

Now I want to get back to my...

[laughing]

Is there some explanation where they can claim that they're still within the confines of this peace plan?

Obviously it's not the only violation of Israel, of, uh, international law or signed agreements or, or ceasefires, uh, you name it.

Look, because the world lost interest, and above all because the Americans lost interest- Israel is free to do whatever it wants right now.

Israeli public opinion is not concerned at all, and it's hardly also present in Israeli media, and the killings, killing go on, goes on without really anyone being willing to stop it.

It's, it's really as simple as this.

Israel will find all kind of excu- uh, excuses, but usually they are, those are lies because whenever they kill somebody, it's always a, a, a terrorist on his way to risk the soldier.

But we have to realize something, um, very basic.

Would that fundamentally change the situation, or do you think that neither side would actually do business with those Arab parties?

Is that what this is, a catastrophic deal, or does it provide some kind of deeper insight, a reality check for Netanyahu and his multi-front war?

It's catastrophic to those megalomaniac Israelis who believe that Israel can change regimes all over the world, that Israel can bomb everywhere at any time, that Israel has the right to violate the sovereignty of any country.

For them, it is a catastrophe because they have to face reality all of a sudden.

And I really think that th- this agreement can be also a great opportunity to reconnect with reality.

I really hope that Israelis will once and for all draw the lesson.

Namely, that with military force, as well-equipped we are, as technologically developed we are, this is not the solution for any problem, for every problem.

There are certain issues which cannot be addressed only by power, only by military force, only by bombardments.

Gideon, uh, how extraordinary is it that Israel was actually left out of these negotiations when, in fact, this is an agreement that highly affects what's going on in Israel in terms of Is- uh, Iran's proxies, for example?

Is that what this is, a catastrophic deal, or does it provide some kind of deeper insight, a reality check for Netanyahu and his multi-front war?

It's catastrophic to those megalomaniac Israelis who believe that Israel can change regimes all over the world, that Israel can bomb everywhere at any time, that Israel has the right to violate the sovereignty of any country.

For them, it is a catastrophe because they have to face reality all of a sudden.

And I really think that th- this agreement can be also a great opportunity to reconnect with reality.

I really hope that Israelis will once and for all draw the lesson.

Namely, that with military force, as well-equipped we are, as technologically developed we are, this is not the solution for any problem, for every problem.

There are certain issues which cannot be addressed only by power, only by military force, only by bombardments.

Gideon, what do you mean by that, enough is enough?

What does he mean by that?

When I say that the agreement is very fragile and very explosive, I meant exactly this.

As long as Israel stays in Lebanon, there will be resistance to its occupation.

As long as there will be resistance, there will be all kinds of violent actions, and this will risk the agreement with Iran.

And therefore it's up to the American president either to say he's not interested anymore and let them bleed, or he will be decisive enough to enforce his authority over Israel and to make Israel withdraw from Lebanon.

Without a full withdrawal from Lebanon, the agreement with Iran will remain fragile.

Is there any indication that America will stop Israel from continuing that?

It stopped until now on a very vague basis.

Do you have any idea?

No, and there is no idea.

There were very nice ceremonies, as the president like.

Did they renovate one house in Gaza? We are now almost three years.

One house was renovated, one institution.

One person in Gaza can say that he lives human life now.

One, in the entire Gaza Strip.

Sorry [laughs]

If you're going to respond to Professor Bartov and make the argument you made in your piece.

Absolutely.

Thank you for having me, Amy.

Uh, I ca- can't agree more with my friend, uh, Omer Bartov, Professor Bartov, except of two small, uh, uh, remarks which I noted in my, uh, piece.

The first of, of them is, and we just heard Professor Bartov now hesitating, and I understand this hesitation.

It's, it's emotionally a very painful process, but he's hesitating in defining himself as an anti-Zionist, and in the same time, he has so much critic, very justified critic, about Zionism.

And, and he comes to the conclusion that Zionism must vanish.

Uh, and this whole issue of how, how would Israelis, uh, create, or how would Jews create a state where in a territory they were, they were still at that time a minority?

If you're going to respond to Professor Bartov and make the argument you made in your piece.

Absolutely.

Thank you for having me, Amy.

Uh, I ca- can't agree more with my friend, uh, Omer Bartov, Professor Bartov, except of two small, uh, uh, remarks which I noted in my, uh, piece.

The first of, of them is, and we just heard Professor Bartov now hesitating, and I understand this hesitation.

It's, it's emotionally a very painful process, but he's hesitating in defining himself as an anti-Zionist, and at the same time, he has so much critic, very justified critic, about Zionism.

And, and he comes to the conclusion that Zionism must vanish.

Uh, and this whole issue of how, how would Israelis, uh, create, or how would Jews create a state where in a territory they were, they were still at that time a minority?

If you can respond to Professor Bartov and make the argument you made in your piece.

Absolutely.

Thank you for having me, Amy.

Eh, I ca- can't agree more with my friend, eh, Omer Bartov, Professor Bartov, except of two small, uh, uh, remarks which I noted in my, uh, piece.

The first of, of them is, and we just heard Professor Bartov now hesitating, and I understand this hesitation.

It's, it's emotionally a very painful process, but he's hesitating in defining himself as an anti-Zionist and at the same time he has so much critic, very justified critic, about Zionism and, and he comes to the conclusion that Zionism must vanish.

So either or, I mean, so whether you are anti-Zionist because it's terrible or you are a Zionist and you can live with it, but I, I believe that, eh, Omer Ba- tov cannot live with it, and he says it very clearly.

Uh, and this whole issue of how, how would Israelis, uh, create, or how would Jews create a state where in a territory they were, they were still at that time a minority?

If you're going to respond to Professor Bartov and make the argument you made in your piece.

Absolutely.

Thank you for having me, Amy.

Uh, I ca- can't agree more with my friend, uh, Omer Bartov, Professor Bartov, except of two small, uh, uh, remarks which I noted in my, uh, piece.

The first of, of them is, and we just heard Professor Bartov now hesitating, and I understand this hesitation.

It's, it's emotionally a very painful process, but he's hesitating in defining himself as an anti-Zionist, and at the same time, he has so much critic, very justified critic, about Zionism and, and he comes to the conclusion that Zionism must vanish.

So either/or, I mean, so either you are anti-Zionist because it's terrible, or you are a Zionist and you can live with it.

Uh, and this whole issue of how, how would Israelis, uh, create, or how would Jews create a state where in a territory they were, they were still at that time a minority?

Um, so Gideon, maybe you can just start by, by explaining what your critique was.

First of all, thank you to both of you, to you Peter, and to you Omer, that we have this, uh, really exciting opportunity to be all together and to talk to people who listen, because here in Israel, nobody listens anymore, for sure not to this kind of conversations and topics.

I, uh, I guess everything started from jealousy.

I envy Omer-

[laughs]

I envy Omer, first of all, for the title of his book, because all my life, I wanted to write a book, what did... what went wrong? Israel, what went wrong? And here, he stole the title.

Secondly, he's one ye- uh, year younger than me, exactly one year younger than me, and I all of a sudden found myself, when I read his very interesting interview in Haaretz, I find myself that he's in the place that I was just one year ago.

So it's only a gap of one year, and we stand together and there will be no argument between us.

Could you give us more detail about that line you wrote that undercover of the recent wars, the West Bank has been transformed? Transformed how?

You see, Brian, I am covering the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza before for the last forty years, and what I witnessed in the last two years is really unprecedented.

The West Bank is changing and rapidly.

The settlers, together with the army, are changing it in a very violent and many times barbaric way, and part of the changes will be irreversible.

You see, Brian, for the settlers, for us, wars are wars.

For the settlers, wars are an opportunity, and the war in Gaza first and now, and then the war in Iran were an opportunity for them to go wild like never before, and the army, who is supposed, according to the international law, is supposed to protect the local people, the Palestinians, is collaborating totally in a open way, uh, nothing hidden, together with the settlers to, to, um, to promote their, their plan, and their plan is very clear.

They want the West Bank to be clean ofPalestinians, and they are doing anything possible to promote it.

Can you tell us more about who the settlers are demographically or however you want to describe them and why they're willing to use violence to take Palestinian land and what they think the future holds if Palestinians never have equal voting or other rights?

So you put it together, you know, much as people will listen to Jonathan Conricus and understand context is important, but the combination of that appalling image of this IDF soldier desecrating, uh, a statue of Jesus with this report in your publication, it certainly is testing extremely hard, I would argue, this constant refrain we hear that the IDF is the most moral army in the world.

I can assure you that, uh, Jonathan will say that those were exceptions.

You'll bring more and more testimonies by soldiers, and you will always hear the Israeli denial, the Israeli self-denial.

There will always be Jonathans who will explain us that those exceptions don't tell us the full story.

They will talk about the context, and I want to talk about the context.

The context of the soldier who broke the sculpture, this sculpture of Jesus, and the context of those horrible and horrifying stories that we read, read last Friday in Haaretz is the same context.

An army who is now preoccupied in a brutal occupation for decades now cannot behave otherwise.

Well, we-

I- is, is there a genuine, deeply held public consent for, for this ongoing permanent state of conflict? Do, do people actually want it, or, or are they simply too afraid to, to speak out against it?

We had today in Haaretz a excellent piece claiming that Israel and Israelis are addicted to war, and this might be a good explanation.

I don't think that people are happy about war, but Israelis perceive wars as an opportunity in many cases.

War in Gaza was an opportunity for the settlers.

This was an opportunity to get rid of the regime in, in, uh, Iran, no matter how achievable it is, but it is an opportunity.

Other people see it as an earthquake, as a force majeure which, you know, you can't do much about it.

Uh, there are, in certain places around the globe, earthquakes or, or, or other volcano, uh, explosions once in few years.

Mm.

Couldn't that also happen? And that means Israel has to be a lot more calculated than what they do in the region?

I almost cannot see an alternative scenario.

I almost cannot see anything else happening.

Because first of all, very soon we'll start the blame game.

Once everyone realizes that this war was a fiasco because it achieved nothing, and it might even strengthen Iran and the regime, Donald Trump will do anything possible to put the blame on Israel's shoulders and on Netanyahu's shoulders.

Now, I don't have to tell you what are the sentiments among both parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, vis-à-vis Israel.

Israelis are not aware of the huge shift in American public opinion.

yeah i'm reading now statements as well everyone's talking about how israel a lot more rhetoric about how israel is calling the shots um can i ask you more now about we talked a lot about lebanon and israel and lebanon normalizing relations what happens between israel and and iran how is that relationship going to look like

Why has Netanyahu been so intent upon it? What do you think he hopes to achieve by having drawn the United States and Israel into this war? So first, thank you, Chris, for having me again.

It is very hard to find one answer to all the very good questions he raised, because we can't get into politicians and statesmen's minds.

What motivates him? I think that it's a combination.

First of all, we have to look at the mindset, the mindset of Israelis and the mindset of Netanyahu, which in many ways reflects the Israeli mindset.

namely always to look for an enemy, always to feel persecuted, always to victimize, always to feel we are the David and there is some Goliath who is going to exterminate us and to push us to the ocean.

Iran paid its share because Iran, ever since this regime is in power, didn't stop threatening Israel.

Only in words, but in very tough words.

The

Uh, "This will be peace for Israel, long-term peace, guaranteed peace if that ha- this happens." And then without pausing, without pausing at all, he said, "And I can't guarantee it." What do you make of, of, of, of, of what, uh, President Trump's up to?

I wish, James, that the aspirations would have been much, uh, lower.

When he speaks about peace, uh, in the Middle East, I lose him because we were never so far from peace in the Middle East.

We were never so far from solving the Palestinian issue, which is the core issue.

But still, I have to say that unlikely many analysts, I tend to believe that, uh, we are closer to an agreement, and I hope that an American president does not go so low and spreads all kind of, of fake news only to get better positions in the negotiations.

I really want to believe that Donald Trump got to the conclusion that this war is enough for him.

He cannot gain much more, and he's losing from day to day.

The country has, you could say, been on a war footing for all of its existence.

Um, if you can describe the scene inside there and then why you say your country has gone crazy, and also talk about the media coverage.

Well, first of all, going to the shelter is always a very strange, uh, experience.

Uh, we kind of got used, and we never got-- get used, and, uh, it kind of became routine, as it will never be a normal routine, day and night.

We are going quite often now also at nights.

I can't foresee how this can last for many weeks or months, God forbid, but, you know, in Ukraine, they hardly have, uh, shelters.

So at least in part of Israel, not all over Israel, but at least in part of Israel, we gain this privilege of being protected.

Now, uh, to your, uh, other questions.

If you can talk about that as an example of what's happening and the terror Palestinians are facing there.

Um, if you can describe the scene inside there and then why you say your country has gone crazy, and also talk about the media coverage.

Well, first of all, going to the shelter is always a very strange, uh, experience.

Uh, we kind of got used, and we never got-- get used, and, uh, it kind of became routine, as it will never be a normal routine, day and night.

We are going quite often now also at nights.

I can't foresee how this can last for many weeks or months, God forbid, but, you know, in Ukraine, they hardly have, uh, shelters.

So at least in part of Israel, not all over Israel, but at least in part of Israel, we gain this privilege of being protected.

Now, uh, to your, uh, other questions.

If you can talk about that as an example of what's happening and the terror Palestinians are facing there.

Um, if you can describe the scene inside there and then why you say your country has gone crazy, and also talk about the media coverage.

Well, first of all, going to the shelter is always a very strange, uh, experience.

Uh, we kind of got used, and we never got-- get used, and, uh, it kind of became routine, as it will never be a normal routine, day and night.

We are going quite often now also at nights.

I can't foresee how this can last for many weeks or months, God forbid, but, you know, in Ukraine, they hardly have, uh, shelters.

So at least in part of Israel, not all over Israel, but at least in part of Israel, we gain this privilege of being protected.

Now, uh, to your, uh, other questions.

If you can talk about that as an example of what's happening and the terror Palestinians are facing there.

W- what are your thoughts on that?

So first of all, we are witnessing now the backlashes of the seventh of October '23.

Ever since then, Israel turned into the notion that everything can be solved and everything is legitimate to be solved by force and by a lot of force, by unlimited force.

We will change the leadership of the Middle East.

First, we tried in Gaza.

I must remind you, two and a half years, no regime change in Gaza, even though it was a very clear goal, never achieved.

Hamas is alive and kicking, and don't compare Gaza to Iran, obviously.

Gideon, what, what do you, what do you think is gonna happen here?

Does Netanyahu worry about that? Does he see his country spending its political capital?

He is worried and not enough.

And the entire Israeli public opinion is worried, but not enough.

From the first days of Israel, when Ben-Gurion say this unforgettable sentence, it doesn't matter what the gentles say, it matters what the Jew do.

Ever since then, for Israel, and much more in the last two years under Netanyahu, in the war in Gaza, for the Israelis, there is one narrative.

The world is against us no matter what we do.

The world is anti-Semitic, and we can't do anything about it, and therefore we should do whatever we feel is the right thing by totally ignoring the world.

Does Israel have ambitions, do you believe, beyond Gaza, the West Bank? I mean, to what extent would Israel like to seize a really decent chunk of Syria?

Does Netanyahu worry about that? Does he see his country spending its political capital?

He is worried and not enough.

And the entire Israeli public opinion is worried, but not enough.

From the first days of Israel, when Ben-Gurion say this unforgettable sentence, it doesn't matter what the Gentiles say, it matters what the Jew do.

Ever since then, for Israel, and much more in the last two years under Netanyahu, in the war in Gaza, for the Israelis, there is one narrative.

The world is against us no matter what we do.

The world is anti-Semitic, and we can't do anything about it, and therefore we should do whatever we feel is the right thing by totally ignoring the world.

But is Netanyahu opposed sufficiently, coherently in the country for him to really be under threat?