Um, George, before we get into the book, uh, ju- just tell listeners, uh, a little bit, uh, about your career in golf journalism, um, obviously culminating in a 25-year stint, um, at Golf Magazine as editor-in-chief.

Yeah, it's actually, I'm going on, uh, 50 years, uh, working in what one of my heroes, a fella named Herb Graff is called the toy department of life.

Uh, I've been very, very lucky to be able to do what I do.

It, it started really, um, I was a book editor, uh, and I got an idea for a book on golf called Scrambling Golf: How to Get Out of Trouble and Into the Cup.

And the idea was for Lee Trevino, this was back in 1975, I think, uh, to do the book, and he was, like, the best scrambler at the time.

Well, his agent, uh, wanted too much money, $25,000, which in those days was probably equivalent to 250,000 today.

So the little company I worked for said, "No, that's too rich for us," and the idea languished for a while.

I, I wondered if there were any that you stumbled across that you thought, "Why haven't I ever heard more about this one?"

Or do you find a story that matches or is there some sort of blend?

Well, that's a good question.

And there actually are, if you think about it, there are thousands of candidates out there.

There are probably 25,000 golf clubs in the world, every one of them with a logo, most of them pretty bad.

So the relevant universe is something under a thousand to be considered.

And you know, the four of us, the five of us kind of came up with our working lists and we pooled them and we came, I think we arrived at 400, a ballot of 400 to be considered.

And that came down pretty quickly to about 250.

Did you find any stories that you were really hoping you could tell and then realize the logo fell flat?

Uh, so can you walk us through a little bit of the history of logos?

Yeah.

I mean, the, I think the first line of the book is, uh, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and Earth." Uh, logos came shortly thereafter.

Uh, if, I, early in the Book of Genesis, uh, there is a, a moment when, uh, shortly after, uh, Cain, uh, slew Abel, uh, God put a mark upon Cain, and this was not to brand him as a bad guy.

It was to protect him from any, uh, vigilantes that may have been roaming the Eden area.

And it was, in effect, it was God's keep off sign.

So, you know, it turns out that, uh, logos are not a 20th century phenomenon.

Can you tell our listeners about that adventure?

Yeah.

And he's based in Atlanta, and he has gotten unprecedented access to the Jones family archive, and they are cooperating, and they want him very much to do a warts-and-all biography.

And he shared with me some of the stories he's accumulated, and they're absolutely fascinating, things that no one has ever heard about Bobby Jones.

And I really think it can become a blockbuster, buster when it ...

It won't be published, obviously, until 2030.

Uh, but hopefully you'll still be in business here and you'll have him to talk to, and you'll, you'll have a great interview with him.

Anyway, he was approached, and he said, "No, I'm involved with this three-year-long project.

Yeah.