That's good.

It's also really challenging...

And it, again, uh, there are lots of people who are fantastic at this, and so, um, find...

And it could even be somebody in your church who's a, works in consulting or works in some sort of place that's very strategic thinking, uh, a leader like that.

But, um, you know, Rich, you know this.

It's really hard to participate and facilitate at the same time.

And, you know, as a lead pastor or an XP or someone in that space, we need your full attention on the thinking, not the facilitation.

Can you unpack that a little bit more? What's that actually look like in a church?

The right things to do.

Yes.

The five rights.

Um, so I mentioned 10 years ago, we began implementing a lot of this, um, and I was learning about it and it really comes from a lot of my, uh, and don't push back on this, but it comes from a lot of my business understanding and my marketing background that, uh, through segmentation and understanding that when we're trying to sell to a person, uh, and we're not selling, but when a company is selling to a person, they want to understand who they are and what their needs are.

And, and, and, you know, uh, empty nester versus a 20 something who's not married yet, right? Those are very different people.

And so how we talk to them and what product they may want, all that's going to be different.

And so as I began to think through the ministry lens of this, I realized that we have people showing up in our churches from, I mean, think about how wide the spectrum is of people showing up at a church on a Sunday morning.

Yeah,