And now you're in a season where you're like in my forties, I just want to dial in or is it still, or is it more waiting, still waiting till that clarity comes?

Well, I don't know.

Maybe I, like I said, maybe it's perimenopause.

So, you know, like take this with a grain of salt, but I feel like like, what does it matter? I guess that's how I feel, you know? Cause it's like, at the end of the day, the kids still need their, their sports shoes.

Like they, the, the bills still need to be paid.

The, the pulpit needs to be filled.

Um, the, you know, at the end of the day, it's real for me, at least it's just really about, um, Just what does the Lord call me to steward for this season? And and then if there's another big mission and assignment for me to take on, he'll show me like I think before I was in a lot more of a rush.

Jersey, so big metropolitan city.

I

couldn't just turn things off like I used to.

My whole life was revolving around the unpredictable things routines, I guess.

I know that's an oxymoron, but the unpredictableness of my children's lifestyle.

And so I really had to dig deep.

What does intimacy with the Lord look like if I cannot go to that prayer meeting? If I don't have the bandwidth to read all the New York Times bestselling books that everyone's talking about, what does that mean? What does that feel like? And I realized, wait, if I really believe that an entire nation went through the wilderness to and was able to be led and fed by the presence of God alone.

And if that's truly what I believe, then surely I must also believe that by the blood of Jesus Christ, and if the Holy of Holies is really in me, then he's with me no matter how mundane, no matter how painful that moment actually is.

For those of us who are listening, we're like, it doesn't feel that way.

yeah if somebody's coming out of i'll just say like the trauma of that and again let's just let's go with the assumption that it was like you know misused mishandled how can they learn to discern the difference now between maybe what they experienced was like quote unquote the spirit versus tapping into holy spirit actually leading them

Yeah.

Oh, I mean, coming from a very charismatic background, I could I've definitely had my share of some of those experiences.

And I would say it wouldn't be it would never be abusive.

The Holy Spirit is not an abuser, you know, and he's not going to threaten us and pressure us into fruitfulness.

And I think when we start to assume that this pressure that I feel or this fear that an intimidation that I feel from certain leaders or certain people in the church or whatnot to be better, to be greater, to meet a certain standard.

yeah holy spirit he's not somebody that tries to intimidate you into greatness basically and so i would i would discern through that and but to heal from that uh i would say it will come from a deepening friendship with the holy spirit really you know he will have to replace some of our memories you know um and i've literally had moments with jesus when i asked him all i all the memories that i have of church in the past year have been bad can you replace those memories and can you give me the right memories with you that i may have the experiential revelation and knowledge of who you are and not have my past experiences affect the way i see you you know and he does answer that prayer he He still is answering that prayer.

How can the people listening right now become the church to the people around them?

... where at night you would think about God, and eventually you say to your mom, "You know, we gotta go to church."

Yes.

Uh, I mean, I totally agree with that assessment of children's spirituality.

I believe that, uh, children are the most honest in their spiritual journey, and I see that in my own kids.

And even for myself, when I was around s- five to six years old, I don't know, I just figured if there's a God, I should get to know him.

[laughs] Like, it's, like, a good idea to get to know him.

And we were on a family vacation, and for some reason while we were in the hotel, I remember my parents were packing, and I was watching a Jesus film on the, on just cable television.

Yes

Yeah.

you know, that's directly affected by your friendship with Jesus.

You know, I'm not saying other things are not affected and there are other jobs that aren't affected by that.

No, I'm just saying like, this is like a very niche thing where your spiritual health and how much you produce, they have a tie, you know, like it's impacted.

It has a relationship basically, you know.

And I think sometimes we feel pressured to pray more, not necessarily because we are hungry for that friendship with Jesus, but because we don't want to be bad pastors.

And we want to bear fruit.

It's been such a wonderful conversation.