Where do you see most brands fail with loyalty? Like where do the programs go wrong? And what do you think the genuinely good ones do that are different?

That's a big question.

Where do they go wrong? They go wrong because they forget about the customer.

I think a lot of times we start to go put a plan in place and all of a sudden it gets bogged down into, well, what is the program going to cost? Why are we doing this? Should it be...

well, we can't do 10 points for a dollar, but we can do eight or things like that.

And at no point in that conversation did anyone say, but what actually would drive the customer behavior, right? And I think that's the biggest miss is you start with the customer and then we lose it while we're building the program.

And then we pick back up at the end and we go, oh, the customer's gonna love this.

I get what you're saying, but...