At 16, some people are young men and young women, and if they haven't got a job to go to and they don't wanna be at school, that's gonna make the teacher's job hell, isn't it?

Well, we already have an early-leaving exemption if you're going into further study or if you're going into work.

We, we sign out about 1,000 young people a year on that.

So that, that will s- remain in place.

It is quite a process.

You've gotta have all the documentation, and the ministry have to sign you out, as it should be, because we don't want children going nowhere.

The key thing for me though, Kerre, is we have put in so much resource into making sure children are doing well at school, whether or not it's the maths acceleration program, uh, the writing acceleration program, all of the maths resources in year 9 and 10.

So in terms of resourcing, what are you going to do? Have specialist careers advisors working with these young people so that the last half of their year at school in year 11 is spent honing marketable skills?

And they married a wife who could do the books, you know,

and it was a great team.

Yeah, well, they can still do that.

If they're going into work, they can get signed out.

I mean, that happens now.

There is a process because we want to make sure that's where they're going and that can still happen.

But I'm really worried about, you know, when you look at these young people and the people that we are seeing who are leaving between 16 and 17, They are predominantly students from lower decile schools, predominantly more Māori and Pasifika because they are in those lower decile households.

It's almost irrational.

Before we get to what happened in the debate last night, why, why are the teacher enrollments up?

Look, more people want to be a part of a world-leading education system.

Um, you know, we're providing amazing curriculum resources, professional learning and development, um, but also we are paying people to train now as well.

There's an extra 704 places every single year in the onsite teacher training program, um, from 2028 as well.

So we've really shifted the balance of putting funding into getting overseas teachers to New Zealand and actually put it into training up Kiwis, uh, and it's going phenomenally well, so, you know, an extra 1,265, uh, teachers in training today than there were in 2023.

It's, it's good numbers.

So, um, have you started clipping up last night's debate and pumping that out, that he's gonna get rid of the one hour of reading, writing, and maths?

Oh, mate, by 10:00 PM I'd already got a PR, a video in my office that I raced across the off- raced across the forecourt of Parliament to do, uh, and tweeted, I haven't tweeted in years, uh, and on a, a few social medias as well because I just could not believe my ears.

Before we get to what happened in the debate last night, wh- why are the teacher enrollments up?

Look, more people want to be a part of a world-leading education system.

Um, you know, we're providing amazing curriculum resources, professional learning and development, um, but also we are paying people to train now as well.

There's an extra 704 places every single year in the onsite teacher training program, um, from 2028 as well.

So we've really shifted the balance of putting funding into getting overseas teachers to New Zealand, and actually put it into training up Kiwis.

Uh, and it's going phenomenally well.

So, you know, an extra 1,265, uh, teachers in training today than there were in 2023.

So, um, have you started clipping up last night's debate and pumping that out, that he's gonna get rid of the one hour of reading, writing, and maths?

get to what happened in the debate last night, why are the teacher enrolments up?

Look, more people want to be a part of a world-leading education system.

We're providing amazing curriculum resources, professional learning and development, but also we are paying people to train now as well.

There's an extra 704 places every single year in the onsite teacher training programme from 2028 as well.

We've really shifted the balance of putting funding into getting overseas teachers to New Zealand and actually put it into training up Kiwis.

And it's going phenomenally well.

So, you know, an extra 1,265 teachers in training today than there were in 2023.

So have you started clipping up last night's debate and pumping that out that he's going to get rid of the one hour of reading, writing and maths?

Have we gone too far the other way? And how many kids, especially in preschool, are actually using screens in a classroom?

I was very clear in my messaging yesterday that there are very few ECEs that will actually use devices and personal devices for students but we want to make sure that we're clear that it doesn't sneak back in and that it is consistent across the country.

The most important part of this announcement was actually about the primary schools because as device use and screen time has increased in our primary schools the evidence has actually gone in the other direction.

It does say actually it's so much more important to be handwriting and reading from books and having conversations and interactions and, as you said, hands-on learning.

And the rest of the world now is starting to take heed of that evidence and moving in that direction.

So states in Australia from next year will be implementing screen time limitations for students junior primary and senior primary.

Norway, Sweden, they're also moving to remove devices from schools.

Or do you think they're lazy? There's something wrong

The school start check thing, if you find it's an issue, what are you going to do about it?

Well, there's a couple of things in this.

Firstly, there are genuine reasons why children may be struggling, and we've just put three quarters of a billion dollars in our learning support budget into especially those early years, ECE and year one, to help pick up some of those issues and get children seen by specialists earlier.

And that's risen by 30% this year, which is good to see.

But then there is also the other part, which is just this general understanding and expectation that we need to have an ECE and with parents in the school sector, what are the key foundational skills that children need to be able to transition successfully? Good oral language, being able to open their lunchbox, being able to hold a conversation, being able to toilet themselves, which is becoming more and more of an issue.

You talk to any primary school, they'll tell you more children are turning up than nappies who do not have additional learning needs.

So that ECEs are working towards those and that parents at home are supporting them in those goals to make sure that we're getting kids at school ready to learn.

Is that true? If I go and round up 100 educators, do I get pushback on what you're trying to do or not?

The school start check thing, if you find it's an issue, what are you going to do about it?

Well, there's a couple of things in this.

Firstly, there are genuine reasons why children may be struggling.

And we've just put three quarters of a billion dollars in our learning support budget into especially those early years, ECE and year one, to help pick up some of those issues and get children seen by specialists earlier.

And that's risen by 30% this year, which is good to see.

But then there is also the other part, which is just this general understanding and expectation that we need to have an ECE and with parents in the school sector, what are the key foundational skills that children need to be able to transition successfully? Good oral language, being able to open their lunchbox, be able to hold a conversation, being able to toilet themselves, which is becoming more and more of an issue.

You talk to any primary school, they will tell you more children are turning up than nappies who do not have additional learning needs.

Is that true? If I go and round up 100 educators, do I get pushback on what you're trying to do or not?

Earlier I spoke to National's education spokesperson, Erica Stanford, about why that's needed.

The school start check, especially in the milestone reporting, is crucial.

We have more and more children who are turning up to school without those fundamental skills they need for a successful transition to school.

And, you know, you can't manage what you don't measure.

And it's really important that we have a an expectation of what those skills are and that we're sharing them with parents and we're all working towards them both in ECE and at home and that schools know what's coming towards them.

But mostly so that we can intervene early.

Oh, look, there's a range of things from social and emotional regulation, things like taking turns.

Why do you think this is happening? This seems to be an issue beyond the

So in terms of extra assessment and reporting for early childhood education centres, is there a lot of extra work and compliance with this new setup or is it something that should be just a change of forms sort of thing?

Some good centres are doing it anyway and they should all be doing this.

This is part of the curriculum.

These are the key milestones.

They should be measuring them and observing them and great teachers or ECE teachers already are.

But we want to make sure that it's formalised, that there are clear expectations done at a certain frequency and reported clearly to parents so they know here are the types of things my child should be working towards.

So ECE teachers do that already.

It just sounds like common sense, but I don't want to give you too much of an easy ride on that.

So in terms of extra assessment and reporting for early childhood education centres, is there a lot of extra work and compliance with this new setup or is it something that should be just a change of forms sort of thing?

Some good centres are doing it anyway and they should all be doing this.

This is part of the curriculum.

These are the key milestones.

They should be measuring them and observing them and great teachers or ECE teachers already are.

But we want to make sure that it's formalised, that there are clear expectations done at a certain frequency and reported clearly to parents so they know here are the types of things my child should be working towards.

So ECE teachers do that already.

It just sounds like common sense, but I don't want to give you too much of an easy ride on that.

Was there anything in those policies that, uh, you would consider?

Well, there was a few things in there that, that, you know, I... w- relatively good ideas, but for the most part, it's just this usual thing that happens with immigration right before an election, this massive swing of ideas, you know, from huge restrictions on the one hand with Act and New Zealand First and that same group, and even Labour a little bit, right through to, uh, this liberalization where the Greens are going, "Any health condition you have, don't worry about it.

Come on in." Uh, and so, you know, w- we are just a bit more pragmatic.

We've done a huge amount of good work in the last three years to get things under control because we did inherit an absolute mess with immigration running at 174,000.

Uh, Act got some big stuff on the treaty through at the last coalition negotiations, so won't you have to bow to some of Winston's, uh, policies if you want to govern?

Well, there are some questions that, you know, need to be asked around those policies.

You can put a cap on, on, you know, um, resident class visas.

First thing I would ask is, "Well, who are you capping?" Because, you know, 11,000 people a year come in because they're marrying a Kiwi.

Was there anything in those policies that, uh, you would consider?

Well, there was a few things in there that, that, you know, I...

W- relatively good ideas, but for the most part, it's just this usual thing that happens with immigration right before an election, this massive swing of ideas, you know, from huge restrictions on the one hand with Act and New Zealand First and that same group, and even Labor a little bit, right through to, uh, this liberalization where the Greens are going, "Any health condition you have, don't worry about it, come on in." Uh, and so, you know, w- we're just a bit more pragmatic.

We've done a huge amount of good work in the last three years to get things under control, 'cause we did inherit an absolute mess with immigration running at 174,000 for-

Uh, Act got some big stuff on the treaty through at the last coalition negotiations, so won't you have to bow to some of Winston's, uh, policies if you want to govern?

Well, there are some questions that, you know, need to be asked around those policies.

You can put a cap on, on, you know, um, resident class visas.

First thing I would ask is, "Well, who are you capping?" Because, you know, 11,000 people a year come in because they're marrying a Kiwi.

So what's happening with the disadvantaged students? Uh, they, they're improving materially?

Well, look, they are.

And to see these kids who are at the, in the bottom quartile, who have gained, in science, a year, in maths, three terms, that is beyond what we could have expected.

If you look back to 2022 when we last did PISA, our attendance rate was about 39%.

In 2026, 20-- in term two, 64.3.

So what's happening with the disadvantaged students? They're improving materially?

Well, look, they are.

And when I became the minister and I saw the size and the scale of raising achievement and how difficult that was going to be and the turnaround job that was required, We thought that our initial stabilisation of PISA results would be massively positive, but to see these kids who are in the bottom quartile who have gained in science a year, in maths three terms, and in reading two terms or six months, that is beyond what we could have expected.

And the reason I came to politics and to education was to close the equity gap.

It has been stubborn for decades, and this is the first time we've seen a turnaround.

Are you getting a good enough read? Because not everyone takes part in the PISA tests, of course.

That's absolutely true.

We had real problems in 2022 and 2025 with schools just refusing to do it, which is why I've changed the law.

Are you getting a good enough read? Because not everyone takes part in the PISA tests, of course.

That's absolutely true.

We had real problems in 2022 and 2025 with schools just refusing to do it, which is why I've changed the law.

So next time we go into this in 2028, when you are selected, you will be required to do it because these longitudinal studies are absolutely crucial for policymaking decisions in New Zealand and showing that our trend over time.

But when we accounted, when the ministry accounted for that smaller sample size, the results in that improving of the bottom quartile kids still held.

And that's the key part.

Look, one of the things I put this down to is actually kids turning up to school.

What about the commonality of what's being taught? Does that help? So in other words, you go to any school and any teacher, you're getting the same thing.

Yeah

... of the, of the fines.

I mean, it goes right down to warnings and notices and, and all sorts.

So there's a, a range of steps before you get there.

But that was to be in step with other countries, and we know from what we've heard from ex-Meta employees and, and others that, you know, they just don't get out of bed for $100 million or $200 million.

It's nothing to them.

Because of the profits they're making off our kids are so enormous, um, that, you know, they're not worried about that.

Has La- you got Labor support?

Do you think, as you sit here talking to us this morning, that Parliament is out of step with parental New Zealand, given you haven't got the numbers?

[inhales] No, I think that there are a number of p-parties who desperately care about this, and, and even what you're hearing from Act to New Zealand First is they know that there is a big problem.

They do care about this.

They know that we have to do something.

Uh, and, you know, we've done the work.

I've done the work over the last year, um, and put together a comprehensive bill modeled on what Australia have done but, uh, with some improvements.

We've looked at other countries.

Yeah.

We spoke to her earlier, and I asked her what reasonable steps the social media companies must take under the proposed law.

There's a, a range of different things.

I mean, for 90% of people, nothing will happen because the social media companies can tell from your digital footprint you've had a, a social media account for 20 years, and you're, you're probably old, [chuckles] so you'll be fine.

Um, but then there will be a, a cascading range of things that they can do, predominantly to catch those people who are around about 16.

And what we're seeing overseas, for the most part, they're using facial recognition.

That's the predominantly what they're using.

But then there's a load of other things that are coming on stream that they're using like, uh, you know, you can put in your credit card, uh, details to a third-party provider just to show you've got a credit card.

... about potentially fining a, a company like Meta 10% of global revenue, which would be somewhere in the region of $33 billion?

How many would-

60% of parents are saying that they are see...

Hang on.

60% of parents are saying that they are seeing improvements in their, in their young people.

You know, the fact that they're in... they're talking to their parents more, they're, uh, they're communicating with their friends.

They're seeing changes in their behavior.

But the most important thing for me here is it's going to be a generational shift.

... how do they get on the algorithm?

Do you think, as you sit here talking to us this morning, that Parliament is out of step with parental New Zealand, given you haven't got the numbers?

No, I think that there are a number of p- parties who desperately care about this, and, and even what you're hearing from Act to New Zealand First is they know that there is a big problem.

They do care about this.

They know that we have to do something.

Uh, and, you know, we've done the work.

I've done the work over the last year, um, and put together a comprehensive bill modeled on what Australia have done but, uh, with some improvements.

We've looked at other countries.

Yeah.

We spoke to her earlier, and I asked her what reasonable steps the social media companies must take under the proposed law.

There's a, a range of different things.

I mean, for 90% of people, nothing will happen because the social media companies can tell from your digital footprint you've had a, a social media account for 20 years, and you're, you're probably old [laughs], so you'll be fine.

Um, but then there will be a, a cascading range of things that they can do, uh, predominantly to catch those people who are around about 16.

And what we're seeing overseas, for the most part, they're using facial recognition.

That's the predominantly what they're using, but then there's a load of other things that are coming on stream that they're using like, uh, you know, you can put in your credit card, uh, details to a third-party provider just to show you've got a credit card.

Uh, you can use your, uh, mobile, um, provider's data.

There's no way the companies will pay.

How will these platforms verify the age?

Look, there's a range of different things that they'll have to do.

For, for the most part, m- most people will do absolutely nothing because the social media platforms know you've had your social media platform for, your online account for however long and that you're over a certain age.

So for most people, nothing will happen.

For those young people who are right on the cusp of 16, 17, there are a range of different things that, that they can do.

Predominantly what they do overseas and certainly in Australia is, uh, age, uh, face scanning technology.

There's a whole lot of other things they can do.

And how much are you going to fine them?

How will these platforms verify the age?

Look, there's a range of different things that they'll have to do.

For, for the most part, m- most people will do absolutely nothing because the social media platforms know you've had your social media platform for, your online account for however long, and that you're over a certain age.

So for most people, nothing will happen.

For those young people who are right on the cusp of 16, 17, there are a range of different things that, that they can do.

Predominantly what they do overseas, and certainly in Australia, is, uh, age, uh, face scanning technology.

There's a whole lot of other things they can do.

And how much are you gonna fine them?

What proportion of classes that need to be covered have been covered by this? Like, how much more have we got to go on this?

There is going to be more.

We had about 200 schools come to us, uh, and, uh, s- express their interest in having walls put back in.

Uh, of those we've done, with the first 10 million, we've done about 40 schools, and that's lots of classrooms, about 40 schools.

Uh, and this round, uh, you mentioned about 1500 classrooms.

Of, of those we'll be able to actually put 600 classrooms' walls back in.

The remaining, uh, 755 are those complex ones I talked about.

So how many people do you think, in education broadly and p- particularly in the Ministry of Education, are now convinced like the rest of us that these open plan classrooms are a failure? And the reason I'm asking you this question, Erica, is because it's, it's, it's fine that you're putting walls up, but the minute that you are out of office, are they gonna go back to that nonsense again?