And does this have any bearing on possibly what's happening now? Can you translate to current times?

So forage fish are these small schooling fishes, what we think of as sardines or smelts or anchovy or herring.

They have a diverse life history.

They breed in different ways.

They live different lengths of time.

They travel.

They have different sort of preferences for water temperature and things like that.

And after spending so many years studying these birds and the oceans that they depend on, are you more hopeful or more concerned about the future of marine ecosystems? We'll end on this one and why.

Uh, what is that like to hold a penguin?

There was a time I was holding this penguin, and I had my, my ear kind of pressed against its back.

You know, you can hear it breathing.

You know, there's this kind of slow inflation of breath, of like [inhales] [exhales].

And it's almost like it sounds like the ocean.

[waves crashing] So you're holding this bird that is this ocean bird that's about to go spend several months at the ocean without coming to the land, and listening to its breathing, which sounds like the waves, and then underneath that is the steady thudding of its heart.

[heart beating]

Which is apparently a fancy speak for what they do when they're trying to attract a mate or when they're trying to shoo people away from their nests.