But the question I think I'd rather ask you specifically is how did we get woke to begin with? If we could just like cover that before we commence.

Yeah.

So first of all, I mean, just for your listeners, I mean, woke, my definition in one sentence is the making sacred of historically marginalized race, gender, and sexual identity groups from which Lowe's, the principle that if you say anything that might be construed as offensive to even the most hypothetically sensitive member of one of those groups, you are excommunicated because you violated the sacred and so you're cancelled.

And so how do we get to that point, that fixation on particularly race but also to some degree gender with feminism and now with trans and also sexuality with LGBT? That's a story that really largely dates from the 1960s, when what I call the big bang of our moral order, which is the rise of the anti-racism taboo.

Now, of course, racism was awful in the Jim Crow South and in segregated northern U.S. cities.

We needed a norm against it, but moving to a taboo where it's sudden social death, to quote John McWhorter, very irrational thing.

There's no proportionality.

Which of these points do you think has the most immediate potential to foster healthier public discourse and why?