and, and,

and again, there's like value in that, but then when that becomes the goal and as a teacher, like 100%, I have my, my supervisors regularly speaking to me about numbers and data and, you know, and, and it's like top down, it's, it's, so much about numbers and ultimately it comes to like politicians wanting to say that you know when they were in charge of educational policy that there saw X number increase in X number of statistics and things like that and that trickles down to like now kids are education is dependent upon a number um and and and so when again when i see games uh gamification like exacerbating that and or like leaning into that and embracing that um mindset i think that i don't think it has to be that way i think that there's other lessons we can learn um and like a lot of what what this this book proposes is this idea of how in games, you know, you step outside of that.

Like I'm playing for points and I'm trying to get as many points as I can within the game system.

But then I like am not that person once the game ends and I step outside of that.

And now I'm like just the person who was trying to have a good time playing a game.

Right.

And he calls this like a gentle fluidity to to go between like the agent that is your agent within the game.

right