Mm-hmm.

Um, and so it used to be historically that upper class men and upper class women, like nobility, had more in common with each other than with the lower classes.

But with this idea that all men are created equal, some suddenly...

It took a long time to get there, but the idea was is that men across a socioeconomic standing had more to do with each other than women, and women, than women of the same class, and women across socioeconomic standing had more to do with each other.

And so you begin to have this division across socioeconomic lines.

And so this required new definitions of what it meant to be male and what it meant to be female, and one of those huge divisions that is slowly emerging is that men are rational and women are irrational.

And fashion gets used, even though men are wearing fashion as well, the idea that women are emotionally driven and, and like crows, uh, drawn to shiny things, are, are, are not using their brains.

So what did they look like at the beginning?

I wonder from, from your perspective, Elizabeth, given your vast knowledge of the history of shoes, like, uh, when you, when you think about silhouette and heels and, and, uh, the history of Roger Vivier, what, what is it that really stands out and, and like Gerardo says, highlights that Roger Vivier really kind of transformed the, the industry?

You know, I think that, um, Vivier was as interested in negative space as he was with positive space.

And so what I mean by that is that you have the silhouette of the actual shoe, but then you have the space created by the arch of the foot, the shape of the heel.

Um, he was able and interested to create constant tension in the balance of his designs.

So there's a kind of exquisite sculptural quality to his heels.

Um, you know, he makes this extremely fine needle heel in the '50s.

Sometimes, um, it's got a very sharp edge to it.

the modern day moment and, and how does the house meet it now?