Do you want to talk a little bit about how real that sense of control may or may not be?

be?Yeah.

You know, as you're saying with my family history, it, it just occurred to me, um, that it, it, it's probably likely, I mean, certainly not impossible, but likely that I will develop in my lifetime breast cancer.

Um, ah, so many women in my family have had it and died of it.

Um, and so when my doctor offered me the opportunity to be genetically screened, I thought it was a great idea, and part of the reason for that is that if you are genetically screened for risk of developing a certain disease and you have a strong family history, and you are referred to a high-risk clinic, insurance will then pay for, um, certain procedures like a preventative double mastectomy, but there are others that could save you from ever developing that disease.

And so in that sense, it can be very helpful to be armed with that information.

I was hoping, honestly, for that kind of result because it would give me-

Do you want to talk about your reporting on that?

Um, what did you feel like you had to let go of intellectually?

Yes.

So that was, you know, like I said, and, I mean, as we talked about, I had the sort of echoes of the new atheists in the back of my mind.

And, you know, I think about the figure of Christopher Hitchens, who was so cynical and dismissive.

Um, and I, you know, it, it is easy to think that people who are intelligent should be cynical, skeptical, dismissive, and that the most intelligent thing to do is to take experiences like that and diminish them completely.

Nothing happened.

I was just standing there.

Does-- uh, is this just something that happens, um, or, or do you think it can be resisted? I mean, it's just, is it maybe just combining religion and politics, uh, in that way is just the, the demise of both?

So I guess I'll just stop talking about it.

I wanna end this segment by giving you an anecdote and then ask you a question.

So the anecdote is I was on a show with Ro Khanna, and I said to him, "Why do you not see," uh, Liz, you mentioned Medicare for All, "why wasn't the rallying cry or a rallying cry at the win, at the parties where, the victory parties for these candidates, why among the things they were chanting wasn't the phrase Medicare for All ever chanted? In fact, more than ever chanted, why was it never raised as one of the 10 issues that they were running on, on?" And of course, Khanna says, "Well, I support it.

I know you support it, but we're talking about the priority of the issues, and we're talking about where the momentum is, and the momentum was on genocide, and the momentum, or saying the word genocide and Israel policy.

The momentum was on, um, a lot of these more reaching, uh, DSA-type initiatives.

And it wasn't on the environmentalism that the DSA and the left used to be known for, and it wasn't on Medica- Medicare for All.

And by the way, if we could snap our fingers, I would like Medicare for All.

It gets my kit in knickers Elizabeth Bruenig, do you have a go-grinder for us?

So, you know, Liz, what do you take away right now from who we have in positions in this scientific community who would guide us as a country through a very difficult crisis if it comes to one?

You know, I think there are, as I was alluding to, a lot of downstream effects that came with COVID and the COVID response in the United States, and I think one of the effects was that we have an increasingly libertarian view of public health.

People didn't like being told to wear masks.

They didn't like being told to get the vaccine.

They didn't like having to present their vaccine passports.

And I think the response to that has been pretty wide-ranging, and one of the places where you can see how COVID had a sort of acute effect on the libertarianization of public health is vaccine rates.

Um, not just COVID vaccine rates, but childhood vaccine rates really dropped off after people had this kind of reaction to what they took to be draconian, but in my view were never that draconian, limitations on, on public life that came along with trying to manage COVID.

We understand why it doesn't necessarily make sense to you in your life, but we're really trying here, and we need you to do this.

Like, do people broadly believe that he is of faith or that he really wants to work with these people, or do they just see it as a kind of brazen, "I'm gonna say the right things so that you will vote for me"?

Yeah, I think it really depends.

I think that, um, for a while, the evangelicals who supported Trump told themselves that Trump is not necessarily a Christian president, he's a vehicle for Christian ambitions.

Um, so they were gonna sort of throw their support behind Trump, not because he was one of them, but because, um, he would privilege them, uh, in his administration.

Um, and so I think that's sort of how they made that work for them for a while, is just thinking, "Well, he's distinct from our movement.

He's not subject to our rules." But especially with the second Trump term, post assassination attempt, there really does seem to have been an effort inside his campaign and administration to, to really propose that there had been a, a religious spiritual development in his life, and that he really is a, a God-fearing man now.

Um, but of course, i- i- as with a lot of things involving Trump, it seems mostly to be a scam.

Do they find themselves homeless? Do they hang on out of pragmatism? Like how do you read the moment?

Can you take us there?

So, you know, I grew up in Texas, and when I was young, was in favor of the death penalty, and there's an emotional logic to it.

I completely understand why people are moved by capital punishment and why they desire it in a lot of cases, and I, I felt that quite strongly as a young person.

But then as I began to grow, uh, my instincts about the death penalty changed, and I decided to start exploring, uh, execution, you know, in part to challenge myself on my moral commitments.

And the first execution I witnessed was a federal execution carried out under the first Trump administration.

They executed 13 people in about six months.

This was a sort of unprecedented federal execution spree.

What do you think about this moment in particular with President Trump reinstating this and really making this a major priority when, when Americans are at this point where they are coming to maybe deeper inquiries and, and thoughts about this?