And I was wondering if whether when you were writing those, there were any, particularly the one with Appetite about food, whether there was a particular writer who kind of inspired that way of approaching a memoir?

I mean, both of them were not really written at all.

Both of them are spoken.

The method I had, because when I came out of politics in 2015, I'd kind of lost unexpectedly.

I'd had quite a long period before I went on to do new things where I had time.

And I kept thinking of the things which, you know, I should remember and then the things which I ought to have known before.

And that first book, Speaking Out, is not a narrative political memoir.

I think...

What actually is it about that relationship that makes it so, so crucial?

Well, I think the Prime Minister controls patronage and, um, sets the government's direction, so about where the country is going, but also who is in the big jobs to deliver that vision.

But the Treasury, um, has c- control, directly or indirectly, over many of the levers which make that, um, possible.

Um-Both in terms of its direct, um, pulling the levers of economic policy and budgets, but also the fact that through public spending and, you know, the quid pro quo it demands on, on public spending, that it, it can shape what other governments are doing.

So if Number 10 and the Treasury are led by politicians with different visions and different views of how the levers should be pulled in order to, um, um, you know, to, to make that possible, then you have a, a recipe for, you know, potentially crisis or chaos, but certainly stasis because, you know, they'll be working against each other.

So you say you really need Number 10 and Number 11 to be, um, to, to be sharing a political delivery vision and wanting to pull in the same direction.

And, um, and if that relationship breaks down because you have different visions, that's bad for governments.

What do you think could be a new way for that media round and communication to work?

You've done a lot of things in your life, uh, many of them very successfully, but I imagine your proudest moment was the moment you were appointed chairman of Norwich City Football Club.

It's true, and, um, totally unexpectedly, uh, not ever something I would have, um, have, have thought would happen.

When I was a little boy, um, growing up in Bawburgh, just outside Norwich, when I was, um, four years old, I got my first ever Norwich kit, and the first game I ever went to was in the FA Cup.

I think Norwich were in, um, in the lower division.

We were playing Leeds United, January 1973.

So exciting.

The idea that I would end up for three years chairing the football club and sitting in the director's box with Delia Smith and her husband, Michael, but also all the directors, seeing our club playing, but also worrying about signing off the accounts and, um, the financial challenges we were facing back then in the Premier League when we got relegated.

Because they didn't want a lot of incomers by having it e-ma-- finding it more easy to get to Norfolk.