And you have just put into words something that we can sense ourselves when we're dealing with each other, right? That no matter how much we know, if we don't really settle that in a healthy place within us, it kinda doesn't resonate.

resonate.Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

And, and a big part of the discovery, uh, I should say the rediscovery of this truth really kinda came out of Pete and Jerry's story.

You know, Pete was someone who on the outside, uh, the church was going really well.

He was this tremendous Bible teacher.

Mm

Tell us about your experience with, with being at, you know, interacting with Pete, Pete Scazzaro, and Emotionally Healthy Church, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, all that, like, and how that has left an impression, like, and kind of been formative experience for you.

Yeah, gosh, um, It's a little bit of a longer story, but I grew up in Los Angeles, California, kind of in an immigrant church setting in OMC when I was a kid.

And then thereafter, a couple of other Korean churches and went off to university in Berkeley, California.

It was in Berkeley that I sensed a real call to vocational ministry.

And as I was wrestling with what to do, I was very close to... wanting to pursue becoming an overseas missionary, but ended up spending the summer in New York, the summer of 2000.

And during that summer, I was doing what was called a summer project at that point, and it was mostly around urban ministry.

And back, if you guys recall, like in the 90s and even early 2000s, urban ministry was not about reaching the upwardly mobile, but it was really about serving in the hood.

Presbyterian or something like