But Douglas actually wrote the book on cults, and that's where I wanna start, was when I first met him, he said-- I said, "How do you know so much about community?" He said, "Well, I wrote the book on cults." So Douglas, tell us about the book on cults.

[laughs] So it all started, I had no intention of writing a book, but it became one.

Um, and this was before anyone was talking about community in business.

I mean, no one was.

But h- how it started for me was I used to work in branding and advertising, and I was in my ad agency in New York, in SoHo, and I had, um, some clients come in, quite a famous sports fashion brand, and they were depressed, saying, um, "Loyalty is dead.

Branding is over.

We and our competitors copy each other within days.

I remember seeing you go to the coffee shop and saying, "Don't." [laughs]