That's exactly

the way to describe him in my view.

I think he's positive.

And in this lunch that I had with him, or he and I had maybe met once or twice before, but we had talked about kind of ideas.

And at the time, I was privileged to be the president of the Los Angeles chapter of ABODA.

and the incoming national president of ABOTA.

I think I was Los Angeles president in 2004 and national president in 2005.

And just to hear a perspective I hadn't thought of.