So who, who was Ver- Verwoerd the man? Uh, what do we know about his upbringing and the experiences that shaped his worldview?

Interestingly, he's born as a Dutch person.

He was born in Amsterdam in 1901, so he's not born South African.

He grew up in, in Rhodesia, the old Rhodesia, and he did his, his matric there, and he was the number one student there in his class.

Um, and from there he came then to... went to Stellenbosch, where he studied all his degrees he received from the University of Stellenbosch, primarily in psychology, which is actually an interesting fact that it is not about politics or history or...

And then he went for two years, and that is in the middle 1920s, 1924 to 1926, to Germany.

And I think many people see that as very important formative years for him because if you look closely at the history, um, of Germany, that was the time immediately after the, the First World War.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That the ANC is going on its own.

It's continuing as, in some cases, as if it's normal.

Um, and the, the problems of how the, the public's view is, is that the ANC has moved away in terms of their main focus of, of that of public, public service to that of personal service.

Of, of personal interests.

And that's an exceptionally difficult, uh, perception to turn around, and especially if you have to do it in a very short space of time.

Um, because it is in essence about trust, about public trust.

Prof?

So is this a serious blip or is this just a storm in a teacup, the situation with the ANC list and the IEC, Prof?

No, it is not just something that can be dismissed.

It affects not only the ANC, actually 45 small parties.

But in total, it's more than 2,200 potential candidates that are involved in this.

And it is also not something which is now unique to this election and the nomination process.

It has happened in 2021 with the ANC.

It has happened in 2019 with the National Freedom Party, where all of them were disqualified because it was late.

And should it be found that it was not the IEC's fault? Internally within the ANC, and this is now at the leadership level, how is this likely to play out? Because one would imagine that there has to be accountability.

Do you think, Prof, that we've done enough thinking about the realities of governing a new South Africa that is about an inclusive society the spreading out of the influence of resources in more equitable ways than simply just a reaction that came from systems that existed for a particular type of government in the past yes I think this is an important point

And it is, you know, there are different sort of expectations in South Africa of what government must do.

On the one hand is that government must provide and be instrumental in providing almost everything.

The other extreme is that the government must be as small as possible and that it is the responsibility of the individual and that it is responsibility of the private sector and so on to fulfill many of the functions that on the other side it's said that the state must do.

So I don't think we have any consensus about that.

There's quite a divergent understanding of what is the responsibility of government.

The thing where it really comes to the fore is about things like economic development and job creation.

who are

Mm

... um, in their activities and in order to develop into a sustainable movement? And what I've seen from the reports is, is that they are s- dealing with, uh, AfriForum, um, because they believe that AfriForum has developed a model which is becoming involved in community works.

And that is indeed the case, um, in, in many smaller, uh, towns, uh, uh, across South, uh, across South Africa when it is dealing with infrastructural matters and so much.

So I think this is what they are claiming that they want to do, that, but they want to do something similar, and that they want to in a sense redefine themselves or in a way from purely focusing on, uh, illegal immigration in South Africa to a wider community-based organization.

Um, and they believe that AfriForum can give them expert advice on that.

So that's on the-

Sure

...

So I would say there's a very dynamic

form of local politics, local government, with obviously very serious shortcomings also.

When we go to the more like the metro areas or the bigger towns, Polokwane and Mangaunga and all these places, then there are different dynamics and then the bigger parties become much more prominent.

And I think what in the past has happened is that local government elections actually become national elections, not local elections.

And the campaigning was done in the form of national campaigns.

And I think what has emerged now with this year's election is the emergence of mayoral candidates.

Now, ironically, we are not voting for mayors.

Some voice notes, Chris? No? Yes? Yeah? Prof, your comments around that historical relationship between the ANC of the learned, of the educated, and the ANC of the masses, and perhaps that the fissure we're seeing with the ANC and the MK represents that historical reality.

he

had to demonstrate to everyone that he's, in a sense, independent.

He's not on the John Stearnason side or the Alan Ziller side or the Tony Leon side.

He, in a sense, is his own person.

And at the same time, unfortunately for John Stearnason, quite a number of issues developed.

Predominantly, I would say, in the end, first of all, the food and mask disease, the way in which his department managed it, and then what you have just now referred to, and this is that he is, because he is so directly or was so directly involved with the farmers, this issue of the Trump administration about the genocide in Afrikaners and farmers who are specific targets for that, That is therefore a very prevalent concept or attitude amongst the agricultural community.

And if he so openly dismissed it, as he did in the White House, for many people in that particular community, it was very difficult to accept him for that.

What are we to understand about his referencing of Tony Leon in the conversation?

Good afternoon and thanks for your time.

Good afternoon, John.

Yes, it is obviously a surprise, I think, for most people.

Although this company of Tony Leon exists since 2013 already and is in the business of lobbying and strategic communications and so on.

But I think we obviously saw a major opportunity for his company once the DA had now a presence with six ministers in the cabinet, in the government of National Unity.

And as a lobbying group, that is part of their core business is to, as I understand it from John Stearnation's interview, to bring clients in contact with ministers.

Now, that's not unusual in the work.

Is this going to be bad news for the DA as they try to put together a credible local government campaign?

I suppose if you are a deputy minister from one party and you have another ANC deputy minister there in, um, and then you've got the ANC minister Parks Tao, who's now been in that position since the 2024 election, still quite different, difficult to influence policy, I suppose.

Yes, but I think policy is not only linked to a specific department.

A lot of policymaking is done in the form of the clusters of the cabinet.

And the fact that it is also, as is indicated, it is linked to different ministries.

It's not only within one ministry.

So I think for them, there will be more than enough space.

If we look, for example...

John Steenhuisen wouldn't.

any of the factions of the ANC, would that have played any significant role if a person who chairs this committee comes from the ANC?

Well, I think, you know, compared to, for example, the impeachment of the public prosecutor, Hussein Koulibani, there she was not a politician in her own right.

She's not a member of parliament.

She was not a cabinet member or, in this case, now a president.

So her political status was sort of an indirect one.

But in this case, President Ramaphosa is politician number one in South Africa.

And in that sense, such a process will have to be as much as possible led by persons one can call, for lack of a better word, maybe non-aligned.

How seriously must South Africans and foreigners alike, legal and illegal, take this call?