Daz, I don't know if you had a chance to, to hear that, but it certainly sounded as if there was likely to be some movement on this or, or if not likely to be, then it was certainly under consideration.

Yeah, I did hear a little bit of, uh, of it, uh, Fliss, uh, on, on, online, and my immediate thought is that if, uh, Dafydd Tristan and Ken can speak to each other in a podcast, then they can speak to each other, um, in a room with a table as well.

Uh, and I think that's the really important thing.

Um, we have to distinguish, I think, uh, Steph has just teed this up, you have to distinguish between the aims of a policy, um, and the accumulation of evidence of delivery, uh, over time, and I think that neither Ken nor Dafydd would argue with the fact that it's the delivery and the outputs which are important.

So I'd have thought that the really key thing at this stage from the Welsh Government's point of view, uh, is then to get round the table, uh, with, with, with Ken Skates or the Labour opposite numbers and start talking through some of the detail.

Maybe not get hung up on the branding, 'cause I, I would have thought that the common ground between the two parties in terms of the outcomes that they both desire, uh, is very strong.

Does that make it harder, or does it make it easier because both sides have been to the precipice and looked over, as it were?

Yeah.

A ti'n nabod o, hynny? Ydy o'n wrth ddatganoli?

Uh, wel, am-amser a ddengys, a dwi ddim yn gwybod yr ateb onest.

O'n i'n nabod Stephen rhyw chwarter canrif yn ôl.

O'dd y ni'n dau'n digwydd bod yn gweithio ym Mrwsel ar yr un pryd.

O'dd Stephen yn gweithio ar gyfer British Council ac o'n i'n gweithio ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru.

Ar adeg hynny, uh, mae'n boi hynod o glên, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, ond ar adeg hynny hefyd, roedd yn boi agored yn ei feddwl ac yn, ac yn, ac yn fodlon, um, mynegi barn eithr radical.

Ond wrth gwrs, nawr mae'n wenidog.

O ran lle maen nhw arni, y, Des, be 'di'r marciau allan o ddeg ac ydyn nhw'n mynd i gyrraedd y, y can diwrnod 'na mewn sefyllfa dda?