I played against Carl, he'd have room with him.

You've ripped me concrete, Karl.

I've ripped me Karl.

That's why the challenge.

You slept with one eye open there for a few seconds.

That's why all of it is like, it was one more fighting experience in life.

I can still remember what this was all for.

Well,

um and you're you're you know you you were teammates with Sean that's why I mention it now I mean and it's obviously there's these you know you people say you see these these you know the the the traces of success you know and you've gone from that Wigan team and you were then you were instrumental in that team Dennis um Andy Farrell was Sean Edwards were and and loads of other people who've gone on to have successful rugby union careers as well that you know our rugby union listeners listeners will know about and it's i mean you you talk about those circumstances you grew up in was that has that shaped you as well and molded you and and can you see you know are you not surprised by what's happening in the world of rugby with the guys that you were teammates with changing the game of rugby union as well

yeah again it's when you're in that group it's just it's hard to see the wood for the trees kind of stuff it's that Now, when you step back, like, Sean Edwards was driven from a young age.

And, yeah, I think he was molded by his father, who was an ex-professional rugby player.

And he was quite obsessive.

So, like, Sean would keep notes on everything as a player, like, all the way through.

And I started doing a little bit of that as well.

And I did it for a bit, and it was just too hard.

that you've applied to all of those people? You've got to treat them both completely.