Awesome.

Meanwhile, they're connecting, right? They're creating corridors, like literal watershed corridors with the fish pond and nearby with that kalo farm.

All these guys are on the same board.

It's called the Hakuhia Project.

So that's just a great example of a church, just a regular church that very intentionally said, how can we do this in a way that provides land healing and cultural healing? Another great example is Heber Brown, the founder of the Black Church Food Security Network in Baltimore, based in Baltimore.

He started with a low resource church that's actually a high resource church because it had amazing people in it.

They started with one simple church garden on their tiny little property in the middle of the city of Baltimore.

What is asking those questions deepened you into maybe

So I'm curious, in the face of a litany, climate, biodiversity loss, pollution, and so on and so forth, why is it worthwhile to invest what you're doing now, which is a lot of time and energy, into this? What compels you at this point? It might have started with nature writers and eco-theologians, but what about now?

Well, one of the ways we deal with our anxiety and our sense of grief is by doing something.

And I have found that to be true in my own life.

I've thought a lot lately about virtue ethics, which is to say we do things not necessarily because they will have the perfect outcome, but We do things not necessarily just because it's our duty, even though I think it is.

And I think we could find plenty of biblical backup for that.

But we do it because it is the kind of person we want to be.

It is a virtuous thing to do.

Which makes me wonder, as you use this term refugia and apply it to church, like what are some of the fruits of doing that?