All right, Deb, so when you're actually on the ground and you can see this decline in the turtle population, what does that actually look like when you go to these systems and these places, and what does it, does it mean for the wider environment then?

Well, I think the thing with threatened species is it's not always obvious.

So when you have pests and weeds, you notice them 'cause they're annoying you.

But with threatened species, they quietly decline.

And so you have to go out looking, and you need these long-term data sets to show that with extended effort and extensive effort, you're not catching the turtles that you know were once there.

The other sign of a population in peril is when you don't have the representatives from all the different age groups.

So we've noticed in some populations that there'll be older animals there and larger animals, but the juvenile stage won't be coming through.

So Deb, if I'm an everyday person and I'm out there somewhere, where am I gonna see this show up in a real way that I might be able to recognize and think, "Oh, goodness me, that's not good"?