How did that then go to form your first collection?

So I wrote a poem called I'm Nobody's N-Word and shared it online.

And I think that was the catalyst to the collection happening because that poem went viral on a platform called SBTV.

And then also articles were written that referenced it because the poem went viral.

talked about the murder of Stephen Lawrence.

And I wrote the poem when two of his killers were convicted 20 years after his murder.

And so I was talking about racism in this country, but also in the US and also historically.

Can you tell us about this book and a little bit about your experience of publishing with this really forward thinking press?

[laughs]

I'm just trying to introduce other stories to them as well.

But yeah, it's, it's really fun 'cause I get an insight into so much about...

And children love telling you about themselves.

They actually love telling you what their favorite foods are or a bit about their auntie if they have one and, or who in their family wears bangles and it's just so lovely to have those connections with children.

And they really do focus on the joy of it.

They understand death, 'cause there's a bit in there where Rama's not speaking, she's not speaking to Theo.

... took you down that path?

that's a good result that one is a good result he's like i'm pretty happy with that yeah How important is community to you when you're writing?

I mean, I carry community with me.

I think of certain people when I'm writing as well.

So I'm really good friends with Keith Jarrett, who's an amazing poet, was the UK slam champion at one point.

We were on the spoken word educators program at Goldsmiths.

So I think, you know, as long as Keith would understand this, because he's, you know, black, gay, Londoner, Jamaican heritage as well as I... grew up in the church as, you know, the way I did, although different denomination of Christianity, but like he gets it.

And so I kind of write for people that would get it, like, and then everyone else kind of can come along for the ride and like figure it out as they go along, look things up if they don't understand.

Why do you think that is? And also, what made you decide that Big needed to be approaching his 50th birthday in this story?

So what came first, the hip hop came first or the poetry came first? Yeah, hip hop

was just there.

Like it was kind of, you just grow up with it.

So like, I think I'm a failed rapper.

Like, Because a lot of my early poems I'd write to instrumentals and intend to maybe one day go into studio and record it with someone.

But I never did that.

And I forgot what instrumental these were written to.

oh my god you heard it here first we'll move on dean to your final choice then okay let's move on to the yes fifth and final choice

Were you doing part time jobs? Was your income coming from writing?

No, my income didn't come from writing for the first 10 years, like, of calling myself a writer.

So I did work with my mum for a while.

So she used to be a manager at Connections, which was, like, helping young people find jobs.

So I was an employment and training advisor, first at my mum's office and then a different office and then a different office.

And they all loved me.

It was just I chose to kind of mix it up a bit and work in different offices.

And what you were saying there about like, you know, the whole idea of like, you know, extending the ladder back and providing that support to other people was, is that the kind of thing that that made you want to get involved in sort of like professional organisations? So you mentioned like your work with Society of Authors, I know, when you're in Scotland, you're part of the BP OC writers network, and was was that the kind of impetus for you to get involved in these kind of organisations?