Or what are the new moats they can, they can build around themselves to make it more likely to break through that noise and to get the, the growth and the, the attention from the market that they're looking for?

So I think we're actually seeing it in three main markets or verticals in the tech world that are heavily, um, you know, red ocean environments.

One is cyber, one is e-commerce, and the other is, let's call it like sales tech, martech, and they're all following the same pattern.

So all three of those, there's a million options, right? Always a new tool and a new idea and a new iteration, and tons and tons of different vendors making lots of noise, and therefore the buyers are completely bogged down.

And what we're seeing in cases like, let's say cybersecurity, CISOs are being invited to like Formula 1 races or flown to World Cup finals, right? Um, and that's a line item now.

And in e-commerce, there are companies that have literally gone to all the e-commerce players and just said, "Look, don't take any meetings with vendors.

We'll vet vendors on your behalf, and we'll send you appropriate ones, and you'll get paid for that," or whatever.

What, what's the ways people can get those started in a way that, uh, makes sure that it-they're setting up to be successful and not making the mistakes of trying to squeeze them or, or rush things when they're building those sort of communities?

What is working right now? Okay, so there's sort of like, I'll go through what helps us pick our clients.

Don't, let's go.

Just keeping it 100 with you, we're not going to take on companies that we can't help.

So we have a screening process.

Like a lawyer, right? Like a lawyer, it's like, Like I don't want to take on a case that's going to be terrible for me, right? So the truth is like I always tell my sales team, man, like the sales process starts once we sign them.

Now we actually have to deliver.

Now we're in partnership with these companies.

Anything else that we need to do when it comes to us doing our outreach? I'm

And I feel like now all these like tech developers are realizing how actually difficult sales is and how difficult it would be just to full-on automate sales.

You can't.

You know, people forget.

Firstly, I think it's a giant...

Like that in itself is a sale to investors, right? Like that's their marketing approach of like, oh, it's going to replace all these very high functioning roles because then that's how you get capital invested in your company.

But it's a lie really.

And just an example, probably the most robust technological technology systems are used now for trading stocks, right? Trading in the stock market.

but then yeah your point is they didn't really know like they didn't have access to information like we do these days um they had to rely on whoever they know to provide that information and whether they that person even knows what they're talking about so okay so um for you if you were some if someone was to ask you how they can get to the number that they wanted to you would say um know your leverage um get something that is not like in a living that is not tied to your time um and learn invest in understand the steps i guess like to a specific goal that you have so that's what you did with the

and then it not work out.

And there's a few key factors.

The first one is, do you actually know what ideal customers look like for you at the stage you're at now? That is, I guess, the first gatekeeper.

And if you don't know, I wouldn't do any SDR at all.

Internal us, someone else, doesn't matter.

I would use the founder and the networks that you have to figure that out very quickly.

And there's a lot of companies that think that you can use SDR for that.

a day on your AISDR.