Do you have any sort of examples of people that are doing it successfully and are really able to prove those tangible business impacts?

It's consistently shown, there's no doubt, that the strongest brands are less reliant on having to compete in lower funnel in a sort of undifferentiated space.

so the brand acts as a as a moat effectively which is a really sort of powerful thing and i think in terms of again our conversations with cfos and ceos we need to be mindful of the fact that actually brands are there to reduce risk you know the risk of losing customers to competition the risk of a new entry coming in the risk of a competitor suddenly reducing their prices even unknown risks and a strong brand is your moat and can effectively do that My favorite case study is McCain, which you referenced, and it won the IPA Effectiveness Award Grand Prix.

And honestly, everyone should sort of watch the video of it where they sort of explain what they did.

And going back to 2008, they had a real challenge around, you know, own label coming in.

Again, it was another financial crisis.

Own label coming in and actually how could they, you know, maintain their sales volume.

So I wonder what your sort of view on that is.