And this was his response.

Well, we agree that the immigration system is in a mess under Labor and it was in a mess under the coalition.

And we agree that the number of bridging visas, the more than 400,000 bridging visas in the system, needs to be radically reduced.

And what we disagree with is this package that has come from Labor.

One of the key issues we have with what was announced yesterday was Labor said they wanted to look back to before 2015 and, you know, they wanted to lean into the sort of Tony Abbott era.

And the lesson they took from before 2015 is to build more detention centres, to contract with a US multinational prison operator that is actually the corporation of choice for Donald Trump for his ICE detention centres.

and to expand the number of private prisons here and put people in those private prisons.

Uh, do the Greens agree that net overseas migration numbers need to fall or are you happy where they are?

Well, what we agree that the immigration system is in a mess under Labor, and it was in a mess under the Coalition, and we agree that the number of bridging visas, the more than four hundred thousand bridging visas in the system, needs to be radically reduced.

And what we, what we disagree with is this package that has come from Labor.

I mean, one of the key, one of the key issues we have with what was announced yesterday was Labor said they wanted to look back to before twenty fifteen and, you know, they wanted to lean into the sort of Tony Abbott era.

And the lesson they took from before twenty fifteen is to build more detention centers, to contract with a US multinational pri- prison operator that is, is actually the, the, the corporation of choice for Donald Trump for his ICE detention centers, and to expand the number of private prisons here and put people in those private prisons.

Now, that is not how you deal with overstayers, 'cause the evidence from before twenty fifteen, um, says that there's a far more effective way of reducing overstayers, and it's not putting people in prison.

They're with their kids and their family.

Do you agree with that?

And given what we just saw from the UK, France and Canada, do you think Australia is going to, they're going to be dragged along here and we'll actually see some movement or where do you think things are sitting there?

Well, I mean, if you'd listen to the rhetoric from Labour for the last, what, three years, they've always said, oh, we're not going to move on Israel and Palestine without, you know, the comfort of like-minded countries and we're going to work in concert with like-minded countries and, you know, like-minded countries, like-minded countries, like-minded countries.

And now when those same...

And that's always been code for Canada, the UK and bits of Europe, right? And now all those like-minded countries and actually a whole bunch of other countries have signed on to that commitment to say...

they will put a ban on products coming from those illegal Israeli settlements in West Bank.

The UK has done it.

France has done it.

What is going on there? In spite of the best efforts of you or Pocock or any of the others, is this just a done deal and we've just got to live with it now?

What's being done to make sure that technology like this is stopping at crime prevention or isn't being rolled out and expanded further?

Well, Chris, I have to tell you, there's nothing stopping it becoming just sort of a creeping into the rest of our lives.

And even when we have, you know, state and federal governments or corporations like Bunnings saying, oh, we're going to use it only for eggs.

I mean, that's just plainly bollocks.

Because when Bunnings are running facial recognition to stop potential thieves, right, they're not just scanning the face of a potential, you know, someone who's going to nick their stuff.

they're scanning absolutely everybody's face because that's how it works.

Like everybody's face gets scanned.

Why is there such low resistance? I know that you mentioned your party is pushing back on it, but why aren't you seeming to find support elsewhere?

Uh, w- what's your observation? What's happening here?

Well, yesterday, families, uh, supporters of those people seeking asylum were in absolute tumult, desperately concerned about what was happening, getting within less than 24 hours two totally different messages out of the government.

Now, Minister Burke wouldn't have presented those savage cuts unless he'd been through a process, and then it's, um, turned on its head by the prime minister in less than 24 hours.

This is the problem when a political party is, is not acting on any core principle.

There's no principle behind what Labor's doing here about helping people, uh, fleeing conflict, about meeting our international commitments.

It's the, the 24-hour news cycle, watching how people are reacting, a handful of MPs are reacting, the community response.

That's what produces this flip within 24 hours, an utter lack of principle.

Is this good consensus?

It's a real problem in keeping any kind of corruption out of politics.

Well, I just literally earlier this morning, I finished signing off the form that I have to give to the ACT Corrections Department to allow me to bring my phone in when I go and meet with David McBride, who's in jail at the moment, in a jail in Canberra, you know, like 5Ks, 7Ks from Parliament House.

And David McBride is in jail because he bravely told the truth about war crimes, right? And he's been saying repeatedly that, that the senior brass inside Defence have got off scot-free with war crimes, and that's not right.

They should be held to account.

And, you know, and I go as often as I can and visit David in prison because I'm incredibly grateful for the work he's done to blow the whistle on Defence, to put his career, it turns out his liberty, at stake in order to tell the truth.

Now, what he said has been pretty much verified by independent reports.

There still isn't any accountability to senior defence.

Rated PG-13.

Again, what are you hoping the IPWP will or can do, you know, to really push the West Papua's cause further?

Well, I think one of the most important things we can do is actually talk about West Papua.

West Papua is, uh, uh, barely 250 kilometers from Australia.

You know, it, it's ...

I, I travel a bigger distance from my home in Sydney to when I drive to come, um, to Parliament in Canberra, um, than is the distance between Australia and West Papua.

One of our closest neighbors, uh, and it is never mentioned or almost never mentioned, uh, in the Australian Parliament, um, even though there, there are such significant human rights, um, issues occurring in West Papua.

And I think one of the most important things we did, um, in, in, in hosting the delegation, speaking with Benny Wenda, speaking with the West Papuans from, from across Australia, was, was speak truth about this in the Australian Federal Parliament because, uh, in largely d- due to the, the impact that people perceive it having on our relationship with Indonesia, um, there is a, a, a collective silence on the human rights issues happening in West Papua.

I mean, are you worried that these incidences may deter public support for that independence movement?

Is it kind of like that?

Yeah, only on a, like, what are these for, right? Now, there is a limited use case for people, people with visual impairment, who I think this could be, you know, really beneficial for people.

Like, there is a limited use case for them.

Maybe in some workplace situations, you know, if you're, say, a quantity surveyor going onto a building site and you've got some software in them and it lets you sort of work out in real time, you know, how much materials are here, et cetera.

I mean, there are limited use case for them.

But they should be in very controlled environment and the people around you should have to give their consent to it.

And they should have to permit it.

But they say they disagree with the ruling and they're going to appeal.

I

get an emotional catch.

I feel connected.

to the country.

It feels like kind of...

And, you know, when you fly home to Australia and, you know, the captain or the first officer calls in and says, you know, if you're coming home to Australia, welcome home.

Like, you still get that catch, that emotional catch, and you link it You know, you love the country, you love where you grew up, you link it to Qantas.

it.

I guess, the ramifications for what that means for Australia and our sovereignty.

Yeah, I mean, so we're here in sort of mid-July.

Donald Trump has just come out and basically indicated that he's not particularly keen on democracy in the united states um seems to be kind of maybe making an indication that that whole midterm election thing may not be something he respects um uh from what i can tell is engaged in an ongoing vicious reckless war of choice against iran um is arming and supporting um the violence of the Israeli state against people in Gaza and in Lebanon is inviting continue to invite us to be part of all of those wars.

That's the context we're in at the moment.

And the United States is still apparently our indispensable, absolute number one ally slash master.

And so when we're here talking about Pine Gap and the role that it has notionally as a joint Australian-US facility, it's in that context, right? And it's in a far rarer context, a more real context than I think Australians have seen for decades and decades and decades.

Probably the last time I think we had a kind of national focus on the dangers and the violence of the US military deployment was in the Vietnam War, you know, and... following the Vietnam War and in light of that, mass national mobilisations for a peace movement, for an anti-nuclear movement.

And yet the government position is the polar opposite.

But what would you like to see the government do in this regard?

Yeah, well, we actually need joined-up policy, state, federal and local.

But could I just add a federal level, you know, as a federal senator? The federal labor government, and in this they're mirrored by both One Nation and the coalition, they all say, well, look, we don't need any new laws for AI.

You know, AI and data centers, it's just another iteration of technology.

All of our existing laws are fit for purpose.

Our environmental laws, our competition laws, our privacy laws are all fit for purpose.

Don't you worry about it.

But are you ever faced with quite murky attempts to shut you down or silence you? What goes on?

Do you think it was appropriate for Anthony Albanese to attend this stadium event in Melbourne?

Well, I mean, I think our government should have as friendly a relationship with India as possible, but it should also be based upon truth and honesty, and the human rights record of the Modi government is quite appalling.

You know, the, the Muslim minority in India feel deeply oppressed by his government.

Dalits feel like they are, uh, oppressed.

We have very significant concerns about the, the collapse in press freedom in India and, you know, a, a classic example of that was the film that we saw, which was critical of the Modi government, had actually been banned by the Modi government in India.

So I, I think, yes, we should have friendly and respectful relationships, but we shouldn't be pumping the tires of a regime that has such an appalling, uh, record when it comes to both human rights and also press freedoms.

Uh, what are your concerns this time around?

Well, our concerns remain as they've always been about the trade in uranium, and our concerns actually reflect what Anthony Albanese's concerns were in 2011 when he opposed this deal when it was being pushed through Labor, um, under the Gillard government.

Do you think it was appropriate for Anthony Albanese to attend this stadium event in Melbourne?

Well, I mean, I think our government should have as friendly a relationship with India as possible, but it should also be based upon truth and honesty, and the human rights record of the Modi government is quite appalling.

You know, the, the Muslim minority in India feel deeply oppressed by his government.

Dalits feel like they are, are oppressed.

We have very significant concerns about the, the collapse in press freedom, um, in India, and you know, a, a classic example of that was the film that we saw, which was critical of the Modi government, had actually been banned by the Modi government in India.

So, uh, I think, yes, we should have friendly and respectful relationships, but we shouldn't be pumping the tires of a regime that has such an appalling, uh, record when it comes to both human rights and also press freedoms.

Uh, what are your concerns this time around?

Well, our concerns remain, as they've always been, about the trade in uranium, and our concerns actually reflect what Anthony Albanese's concerns were in 2011 when he opposed this deal when it was being pushed through Labor, um, under the Gillard government.

Mm

... um, and stocking shelves, the speed at which they stock shelves, the nature of which they stock shelves, the speed at which, um, uh, stock is taken from the shelves, um, and then tracking which customers buy which particular types of stock, and then crunching that data.

You could just imagine the number of, uh, lines of data that come out of Coles in an annual year.

And of course, Coles have got a contract with Palantir and, and, you know, credit to GetUp for doing that work in doing it.

But, um, think about, um, the Australian Criminal Intelligence, um, Commission, which is kind of the big national sort of mul, uh, crime body, which is kind of meant to be looking at organized crime and the like, works with the AFP and state and territory police forces.

I mean, they're looking at, um, phone intercepts, they're looking at, um, people's, um, online presence, uh, their emails, the government databases every time they interact, and that's what this program called Gotham is being used by Palantir in the Australian Criminal Intelligence Corporation.

And then, you know, AUSTRAC, um, our, our principal, um, uh, financial, um, sort of investigation agency tracking all of the financial flows in Australia, and they've, they've just increased the amount of data they get through real estate movements because of anti-money re- mon- money laundering, um, reforms.

[laughs]

Yes

Yes... cohesion because we are challenging the authorities, we're questioning, um, the, the, the responses of the AFP and others.

We're feeding into a narrative against social cohesion.

What if someone takes that view? Well, uh, you know, that should concern you because, and there's another reason why [laughs] that should concern you, is the, the Labor Party have got, in the federal parliament at the moment, laws to expand ASIO's secret questioning powers.

Like ASIO already have the power.

They were given it in about 2003, and it was at the height of the, you know, fear about terrorism following, you know, in the years that followed 9/11.

They've been given powers to basically pull people off the street.

That doesn't make me, that doesn't make me feel any better.

Do you see a future where the right mix for defence has submarines? Or do you think we need to go give it away?

Well, to be clear, a nuclear submarine is not about defending Australia.

The only reason we get a nuclear submarine is to go thousands and thousands of kilometers from our shore and project force as part of a U.S. deployment off China.

That's all those nuclear submarines are for.

Yes.

But I'm not going to avoid your question, Tim.

I am going to answer your question.

were taking instructions from Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

Right.

And Pauline Hanson had been out saying it's outrageous and un-Australian to have more than one language spoken, that we should have a monoculture and shouldn't have different languages spoken.

I was around the dinner table with my family and there was smatterings of Cantonese intermixed with, you know, this big family chats about this, that and the other.

And little bits, pockets of Cantonese being spoken.

And it was full of life and love and fun.

And the fact that we have a politician hating on that, hating on what my experience was last night with my family, I personally just find it.

I find that that divisive, nasty and something that I will absolutely fight against.

Yeah, that was my next

Years ago.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think one of the key problems with this debate is, um, yes, all of those other options are difficult, but if you wanted to get submarines, any of those op- op- options is possible.

And, and in the AUKUS debate, right, the Virginia class submarines, there is no possible pathway that they will be producing a surplus.

And that even puts to one side the, the, the, the plain insanity of relying upon the UK industrial base, which is in a complete meltdown when it comes to nuclear submarines, these Snorkus submarines.

The UK Audit Office has said four years in a row now that the UK have no capacity to build the nuclear reactor for Snorkus.

So if there's already been that inquiry, do you just need to vote for the capital gains tax and negative gearing changes?

What were those exchanges like last night?

Well, I think the sense of frustration that the Australian public has that Commissioner Burton still, after three years, has been able to accept responsibility for his conduct, accept responsibility for the fact that, you know, he's led to this, a series of complaints against him, some of which have been upheld by the inspector.

..the disastrous way in which the NAC dealt with robo-debt.

He was involved in the decision-making right up to the final point.

He had a conflict of interest.

He didn't handle his conflict of interest.

The inspector had to intervene.

So what do you see as the issue here? Is it the affiliation itself or the nature of the affiliation?

What were those exchanges like last night?

Well, I think the sense of frustration that the Australian public has that Commissioner Burton still, after three years, has been able to accept responsibility for his conduct, accept responsibility for the fact that, you know, he's led to this, a series of complaints against him, some of which have been upheld by the inspector.

..the disastrous way in which the NAC dealt with robo-debt.

He was involved in the decision-making right up to the final point.

He had a conflict of interest.

He didn't handle his conflict of interest.

The inspector had to intervene.

So what do you see as the issue here? Is it the affiliation itself or the nature of the affiliation?

How have we seen it evolve over the last two decades?

Well, I mean, it, it's evolved like some kind of antibiotic-resistant amoeba in the [laughs] last two decades since.

It's now found itself literally throughout large chunks of the US military, the US Immigration Enforcement Service, or ICE.

It's being used by the Israeli military, um, and Israeli security agencies.

Its data and data analysis has been used to target and kill people in the genocide in Gaza, in the conflict in Lebanon.

We know that it's being used by the US military for target acquisition in...

Target acquisition is such a, you know, sanitized name for finding people, and people to kill, and things to blow up in Iran.

I think the counterargument, though, that comes up in these discussions, David, is that, "If I've got nothing to hide, I shouldn't be worried." What's your take on that?

David, could you start off by reminding us who these families are that are trying to leave this detention camp in Syria, and how did they end up there in the first place?

The bulk of the Australians, um, in this detention camp, and it's in a desert in the northeast part of Syria, the bulk of them are children.

They were either brought over to Syria at an incredibly young age, we're talking, you know, tiny infants, or they've been born in Syria, or they've been born in, in the detention camp.

So the bulk of them are children aged from as young as five through to 12 or 13, and then there are some of their mums as well.

Uh, so we're talking about 34 people who were on the bus.

Around about 24 of them are children.

I've spoken with three of the women.

David, the PM said about these women, "You made your bed, and now lie in it." Now many of these women, as we just heard, they chose to follow their partners over to Syria and to join ISIS, and there are Australians who agree with the PM, and they're worried about them being radicalized, especially after what's happened at Bondi.So can you understand why the government isn't that keen to welcome them back?