Why do you think, in your opinion, why do you think the church is is so hell-bent on this topic as being the big one, as opposed to like all the others got you some criticism, but this one got you the biggest, and it seems to be the biggest struggle that we face.

Well, it does help to contextualise a little bit.

When...

As you say, the level of passion that an issue arouses is often highly contextual to the moment.

But it's really hard, for example, to remember this moment.

After 9-11, when the U.S. was attacked, we freaked out.

So we went to war, not only in Afghanistan against the Taliban, but in Iraq.

Is that sort of what your take is, like what you were just saying, or is there more to that thought process?

So I'm wondering how similar that is or different it is for you?

I describe my calling as having three stages that build on each other.

As a 16 year old, I felt called to be a Christian.

I had an evangelical born-again experience.

As a 17 year old, I felt called to be a pastor.

So we have pastor in common.

And my high school yearbook says I was going to be a Southern Baptist pastor.

um you must have thought about it do i do i write about something or i'm just always having to struggle with these people uh and in some kind of a fight or having to explain myself or do i find a subject and here you know ethics could do this where we've all got ethical issues in you know in common we're all dealing with the same world ethically regardless of where we're coming up from theologically or ecclesiologically or whatever it is um that maybe helped you find that subject uh while you were here although that also means that some of your some of your issues you've got to deal with with pertaining to the evangelical world that you are in are a little bit on delay right you're gonna put that off till later

[laughs]

... um, it turned out a whole youth weekend was, was all planned and was starting in a couple of hours, and four days later I was a convert.

So I was a Southern Baptist born again late '70s convert.

Um, and it was a pretty narrow fit, but it, it kinda worked for me at the time.

Um, and I became a loyal Southern Baptist.

Now, Southern Baptists at that point had more range and more flexibility than the real rigid Southern Baptists that we've known since the '90s, and I lived through that story.

But I felt called to be a Christian.

Mm-hmm.