And so help me understand how that works for you.

Yeah, we might just even say at the outset, yes, for people just wondering, that we're both Christian social ethicists who've each got, I don't know, 20-some, high 20s, a number of books out there a lot, so we both write a lot.

I'm in more fields than you are.

I'm kind of ranging.

I've got to kind of wire... a beach head than you've had since you've been so much in an evangelical frame and working and then you've had this second phase of your career which is post-evangelical so there's kind of reconsiderations about that that you have had but we share so much kind of overlap in subject matter and the kinds of careers we've had and so on.

And even a little bit, goodness, we even have Union Seminary in common.

Yes, we do.

To what extent do you think that academia has been able to preserve what you might call scientific standards of peer review and that academic publishing is still a viable enterprise in this new era?

Tell me more.

Well, you know, Tavis, I'm 12 years older than you.

So we still had Dr.

King with us when I was in high school.

I grew up poor and rural in the middle of Michigan.

Union Road is a dirt road of shacks and trailers.

And I have early in life, I have this just desire to just some sense of what's the world just beyond this flat everydayness of a rural kind of trailer parkish kind of existence.

What are these blinders that the church puts on us that you just referenced? What are these blinders you're talking about?