And here's the evidence yet again.

Yeah, that's right, Peter.

This is just appalling.

And at least it's out in the open now.

I mean, Home affairs themselves have stated that they do not have a nationally consistent definition of what success in one of these programs is.

Now, it seems to combine de-radicalisation and disengagement.

Now, they're two very, very different things.

But this incident, in light of our terror threat level, David, says that we really should be worried in this country and we should be demanding, I guess, confidence from the Prime Minister and others that they are doing everything possible to keep Australians safe.

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I'm on pace to end in a couple minutes here.

David, what can you tell us about the discussions we're told are occurring at the moment about AFP staffing and, quote, this need to cut costs?

Yes, look, I've been informed that there has been a number of meetings in a number of AFP offices about resourcing considerations, that there needs to be a close look at how resources are focused and prioritisation on work.

These are not the sort of things, Peter, that I think People want to hear, you know, on the 25th anniversary of the 9-11 attack, or while we're still in a probable threat assessment or threat level in Australia, that the AFP would be having such meetings now.

If we haven't got it right after 25 years, that we don't have enough AFP resourcing to make us feel safe in a probable scenario, a terrorist attack environment, then we really need to, the AFP is either not being funded properly or it's not channeling the funding in the right places.

But we deserve to know the truth.

I agree, Peter, and I would hope for Australia's sake that our politicians wouldn't be so malicious or careless with the AFP, with the future of our country, because there is accountability and transparency at all levels of the government, and there should be.

And I'll also note, Peter, that for people that don't know, periodically the Minister of Home Affairs issues a ministerial direction to the AFP to inform it of what areas to concentrate in.

The last one that was issued by Tony Burke, I think it was in July, was missing an important clause that was in previous ministerial direction.

right? Absolutely, yeah.

So after trying to push the Series A for three or four months, I realized we had to take a different tack.

So that's when I thought, okay, let's get really creative and look at everything possible.

So we know that grants are great, and if you can get them, it's a great baseline, right? And then I thought, well, we don't really use crowdfunding in pharmaceuticals.

And that's an opportunity to reach out to friends, family, and unaccredited investors that want to invest a little bit of money.

And then the high net worth individuals and kind of smaller VCs, if you will, You know, they want a Reg A, not a Reg A, I'm sorry.

They're looking for the Reg D with some protections.

doing that licensing deal with the University of Nevada, Reno or not, but maybe, yeah, just the initial steps as a co-founder and what that process looked like for getting that technology out of the university.

So it's wide-ranging, isn't it, everything that you deal with?

Yeah, and even not in those high-population areas of Aberdeen, you know, Orkney, the Western Isles, Arratt and Oban.

I mean, we've picked up a patient in Oban and transferred them to Newcastle for a lung transplant, simply because that's where the specialist care was needed.

So you're right, you have what we call, it's HEMS, that is your emergency calls, it's your get up, go, that's the ones that the crew dash out, having planned the whole mission safely.

And then you will have what are considered urgent or immediate life-threatening transfers.

So maybe in the case of the one that you mentioned, the child, there was a specific need, and I'm assuming they've gone from Aberdeen, probably down to the children's hospital in Glasgow for some particular care.

So when time is of the essence, you're right, even under blue light by road, you're still hours away and the winds in Arran or wherever it may well be on a Tuesday afternoon, if you've suffered something significant, you've either got your five hour run trip by the road over the coastline or you're on a land ambulance going on a ferry if the ferries are running and if the weather allows for the crossing to happen.

So what about cars? Are you into cars yourself, David? Yes, I

What does that look like operationally?

Well, even if we just put that into every day, if you take a 25% or a 30-odd percent cut in your staffing and your services ability in any business, it's going to fail.

And what happens in counter-terrorism is your vulnerabilities go up, your stress goes up, your risks go up because you're not covering off every bit of information you should.

You simply don't have the resources.

So it becomes more and more of a liability for an organisation and it's not a risk that I would take.

And I would be very surprised if this report hasn't been actioned because it would be very risky behaviour.

was also in charge when Bondi happened.

That's right.

And what came next? What did that lead on to for you?

Yeah, well, I remained, I then kind of actually went out the sector for a little bit and worked with a fundraising recruitment consultancy.

So again, still brought the people element into that, which again, in your line of work now, you know, Adam as well, you know, recruiting highly skilled and motivated people as well.

And, you know, and being a manager when I left, you know, the Antinone Trust, I was, you know, a federal deputy head of regional fundraising for Scotland and Northern Ireland and the north of England.

So you had a lot of experience in recruiting people as well.

And there was a bit of consultancy.

So it was actually applying what you're doing with the charity and making it a lot broader and maybe working with different types of charities as well in that space.

So talk to me about Scotland's Charity Air Ambulance, about what that looked like, I guess, when you were being approached about the role.

But I'm kind of curious because I think like we talk about this concept of certainty, and I think at times it's a bit of an illusion, you know, that like, you know, what are we really truly certain about? And I'm kind of curious, as you kind of reflect back in a storied career and a lot of success, what kind of leadership practice matters most when you're uncertain or when you finally realize the certainty you thought you had isn't there?

Well, you raise a great point, which is certainty never really exists.

You can rely on certain things happening, but not forever.

But what was interesting, the origins of Refinitiv from Thomson Reuters and Reuters was, you know, a company built in 1860 on the cusp of new technology called the telegraph.

So the transition from old technology to new technology was from carrier pigeons literally to telegraph.

In fact, the British pound-US dollar rate is still called the cable 'cause of the cable that was run underneath the Atlantic.

And then it grew up through a whole series of uncertainty, of technology change from telegraph to radio, to video, to mainframe, to client server.

I'm curious, anecdotally, what are your thought process on that?

[sighs] I mean, obviously we can't go into classified information, but, but what should the public know about what is being kept from them, do you think? If you can answer that.

Well, I think it's, it's fair that in this instance it all comes out on how we missed that this attack was going to happen.

I mean, one of them was known, had already been on ASIO's watch list.

The other one had a legal firearm, so there's two issues we need to look at.

The fact that they've been traveling overseas, uh, on multiple occasions, that should have been a red flag.

That should have been a tripwire.

So the, the threat assessment that was done that said there was no particular threat on the son at this time needs to be revisited.

And, and even just to add one extra person to that load, um, and the resources, the logistics, uh, the cost involved in that, um, is, is fairly significant

Is that the right definition?

That's the definition that people seem to use, Peter, but the more correct definition would be registered firearms because it's the registered firearm that is used in a homicide or in a gun violent attack.

That's the statistic we really need to look at because you're right, as soon as a firearm is stolen, it becomes illegal and at what point do you start changing the statistics? So they need to record...

how many registered firearms have been used in homicides.

And considering over 90% of our homicides in Australia are non-firearm related, to draw down that we need a buyback scheme, I don't know what technical results they're relying on.

So why are we even having a debate about a buyback scheme if the alleged gunman at Bondi was not a, or the two of them obviously, were not registered firearm holders? If that wasn't the case, would we even be having this debate about registered guns and buybacks?

I don't think so, Peter.

But when people talk about Bondi, and I do it myself, you say, oh, the Bondi shooting.

It's like they're pushing the money out there as this is the big answer, but they're keeping the audit, if it's even happening, a secret.

Yeah, look, I think politically it's a great, it solves everything because it makes people feel great.

Oh, good, this person's been sent off to a de-radicalisation program.

But I can tell you that most of them are ineffective.

Studies have shown that.

They're an important measure.

I'm not saying we should drop them.

What the heck's going on here?

David Littleproud said this morning on Sky that there would have to be a change in the Constitution, which requires a referendum for any kind of blocking of Australians coming back into Australia.

That, that may be the case.

That, that ...

Look, I, I'm not a constitutional lawyer, Chris.

That might actually be the case, uh, but I'm sch- conf- confident a re- uh, a referendum would reach the threshold without any doubt.

But before we even get to that, there's plenty of measures like these temporary exclusion orders that I mentioned before.

They can keep these people out for two years while we assess the threat, get the prosecutions ready, put community safety plans in place while ... and then let's get to a referendum.

Is that right?

David Littleproud said this morning on Sky that there would have to be a change in the Constitution, which requires a referendum for any kind of blocking of Australians coming back into Australia.

That, that may be the case.

That, that ...

Look, I, I'm not a constitutional lawyer, Chris.

That might actually be the case.

Uh, but I'm sch- conf- confident a re- uh, a referendum would reach the threshold without any doubt.

But before we even get to that, there's plenty of measures like these temporary exclusion orders that I mentioned before.

Is that right?

And, you know, I don't think any world leaders are thinking hard enough about how to deal with this.

No, we're not.

And obviously, the radicalisation online of younger offenders is going to increase.

So obviously, radicalisation online is a very hard thing to police.

I'm pleased the AFP has been given some additional funding to try and abate that influence, but it's going to be in place in two years' time.

I think that's way too late.

We need to be more flexible and more adaptable to our environment.

What do you think the government needs to do to make sure he doesn't return home? I mean, they don't seem to even be willing to engage in this conversation, but what should they be doing?

Give us a sense right now of what he's got on his desk that he could use to keep this man out.

Okay.

Well, not, not even just this man, Peta.

Pardon me.

Okay, the first thing the government needs to be doing is using these temporary exclusion orders.

Now, I've s- I've seen Tony Burke say that, uh, oh, there'll be a constitutional challenge or the, the high court won't like it.

Well, the fact is, no high court has actually tested the validity, constitutional validity of temporary exclusion orders.

Can we, under the current laws, cancel his ability to return to Australia, knowing that because of his mother, potentially his father, he will not be rendered stateless?

This feels very orchestrated to me now, David.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's, it, it's very, very alarming.

This, this is no longer a theoretical thing that the government can try and hide behind and say that, uh, the people coming back were just brides or, or, or under the direction of.

These are, is, are proven Islamic fighters that are coming back to Australia, and there's urgent action needs to happen by this government.

I haven't seen any leadership from today at all.

I know that there's...

Can we, under the current laws, cancel his ability to return to Australia knowing that because of his mother, potentially his father, he will not be rendered stateless?

Uh, and what is the next step? I- is the next step that we're gonna go to censorship? Is the next step that we're gonna go to two-tier policing? I mean, given, you know, what's happening with the courts on, on the streets, uh, in the UK, is that gonna be replicated here? There is a slippery slope here, and it feels like we're at the top of the slide.

Yeah.

Carl, it, it ...

Do you mind if I read you a quote from, um, uh, from a guy...

I'll have to read it.

Um, Ahmed Tayeh, now he's a political analyst from the UAE, so he's, he's a devout Muslim, a political analyst, and this is exactly what he said last night when I was watching him.

He said, "Radical Islamists are mainly the Muslim Brotherhood all around the world have been allowed to act in such a way, in such a manner, every time that you criticize them, they make it expensive for you.

Mm

But we're trying to do it again.

And let me tell you why.

I think we can do it.

So the company I was at gets bought by AstraZeneca.

They want me to go out to Gaithersburg, Maryland and run their strategy group.

And I thought, well, I live Lake Tahoe, Nevada.

At least I should see what's going on at the University of Nevada.

What, what led to the writing a book? Why a book specifically and tell, and give us some of the background or thesis on it.

So, so just in relation to that, um, for those uninitiated or may have missed our, our show a couple of weeks ago, outline your core accusations.

Okay.

Well, um, there was an international convention signed by the, um, by the Australian government, and it started a domestic law.

So under the, the, uh, Criminal Act, Criminal Code, um, it became a war crime of murder, um, if you could dem- demonstrate that a person was hors de combat, which basically means out of action.

So if, if, if you're in a combat zone and you, um, you, you come across a prisoner, if they're incapacitated, they can't fight back, they're not trying to escape, you're not allowed to shoot them, otherwise it's murder.

Now, um, that had three criteria to it, and since 2002, so it's remained the same.

But what they did in 2004 is they changed it.

I mean, they should be separate, completely separate, right? Um, but how do you have dialogue and keep the powers separate?

I'd like to better understand how the model works for you.

It was an appointment.

It was a wrongful death case, a horrific, horrific death involving a semi.

And so the family was extraordinarily distraught.

They had three children and a significant other.

And they reached out to my office.

My office understood what to do with that call.

ones that are a good fit for

I just know that you used to do

that.

It's a really funny time now where I've really not been a DJ for... 13 years.

But people still know, or people I haven't seen for a while still will call and say, do you fancy a DJ gig? So I spend most of my days trying to talk people out of booking me as a DJ.

Because we've got an agency and a roster.

More often than not, I'm not the guy for what they're looking for.

So we'll find the right person for it.

okay they

Mm-hmm

... believe that the arrest was necessary to, uh, have his appearance before the court.

I do believe that a summons could have been arranged, an instant summons, which would place a requirement on him to, to return to court.

Um, I don't-

And this again from former AFP officer, David Craig.

I think Ben Robert Smith was set up, and this is how they did it.

To prove the work- war crime of murder under Section 268 of the Criminal Code, you have to prove that someone is a non-combatant, an innocent person in the field.

Now, there used to be a list of criteria that had to be met.

Now tell us about the National Security Hotline and how this intelligence or this information would've been triaged and then given to both AFP and ASIO

Sure.

I know I've sat in these meetings, Shari.

What happens is the hotline receives a report, it's typed out, um, and it's sent to the rele- relevant jurisdiction.

So it was in Queensland, it would involve Queensland Police, uh, Australian Federal Police in Queensland, and ASIO in Queensland.

Um, they all sit down, they, they talk about the information that's been given.

Someone will take ownership of it, make inquiries, and then come back and report the outcome of that.

Just on the AFP where you used to work, this, this issue that they recorded the travel of the alleged Bondi shooters to terror hotspots, but then didn't flag it with ASIO or New South Wales Police, how problematic is that?

W- what court will they likely be heard in?

Well, they'll probably be mentioned in, uh, would be mentioned immediately in the, uh, Magistrate's Court.

Um, that'll be a, a, a Commonwealth matter, uh, heard under probably...

If it, if it is a terrorism, uh-uh, offense it'll be under the criminal code, or if it's going to be, um, the crimes against humanity it'll be under Division, uh, 104 of the criminal code.

Which is what the, what we actually do want.

Is, is not the declared area offenses which, uh, carry a maximum penalty of just 10 years.

That's just for being in a terrorist area.

What's your position here? A- and what do we do with these children if we cannot de-radicalize them?

What were your key takeaways from, from the interim today? Does it go far enough?

Uh, thanks for having me on, Peta.

I think the interim report is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think it's a breath of fresh air, and it highlights exactly why, um, the prime minister didn't want a royal commission.

Um, they, they are trotting out this line that the, um, legislative and regulatory frameworks were adequate and couldn't have prevented the Bondi attack.

But what that actually means, uh, in real terms is that they had the agencies, had all the tools available to prevent that attack, and they didn't.

Why didn't they? I say the primary, primary reason, and according to this report, I think we'll find funding was particularly, um, why, um, counterterrorism efforts have been, uh, having funds diverted away from them, and the ASIO and the AFP have been diverting away to other, uh, uh, other priorities.

Um, do you hear this, uh, is a clear breakdown then of security between agencies? Because it would appear some knew and others didn't.