And then obviously you must have gotten a call.

Um, no.

It was, look, um, I sort of, I'd been at T8, well, that would, that was my 14th year.

Um, and I sort of wanted to, I mean, look at the sort of next step for me.

I think, you know, part of it was, um, this is probably gonna sound really, really bad in some ways, but, uh, you know, I'd, I'd been at T8 all my career, um, and I'd worked with probably all the best drivers you could possibly ask to, to work with.

Um, you know, worked with the best engineers like Ludo, Jeremy, Dutto, um, you know, there's Pete Ringwood, like all these, all these unbelievable guys, and I th- I think I wanted to sort of see if I could prove myself outside of those four walls.

Um, you know, I feel like I, um, you know, you sort of, you wonder if it's like- Are they winning? Has it got anything to do, has it got anything to do with me, or is it because of everybody else, you know? Is it, you know, you, you, you, you're working with the GOAT, you're, you're working with Lounsy and, you know, co-drivers like Garth Tander and, and you know, um, Paul Dumbrell, like all these incredible people.

Yeah.

Was it ever in your brain or in your aim to be a team principal, to be more than a race engineer? And if so, where was that born and how does that start the pathway to Grove Racing?

Yeah, like it was something like, yeah, I'd been race engineering then, you know, for quite a few years.

So I was looking to try to take the next step.

And again, at T8, that was also the time where there was going to be an ownership change.

Jamie was going to change this into a driver to a team owner.

You know, there was still... lots of senior people around in those sort of leadership positions that I was still there, team manager, um, you know, Jamie was going to take on like the team principal role.

Um, so I guess the next step for me, you know, the, the, I was sort of, I guess at my ceiling at, at T8, um, you know, again, race engineering was great and I, I loved it and still do, but, um, but there wasn't, there wasn't a clear next step for me.

giving the leash back now.

Crazy numbers, right?

Well, I first met Jamie when actually he was racing for Tasman.

I still had a relationship with Rob and Wally.

And so that's where I first met Jamie.

But look, Jamie was just, I guess it's just everything in the background, his attention to detail and his work ethic.

I guess that's what, yeah.

Yeah.

And if we're going to keep winning, we need money coming in the door.