So why don't you tell us in a nutshell what the book's argument, main argument basically is?

There are several, but one of the key points that keeps coming back and through, and I realize this was probably the most important point that I was trying to make, and perhaps even the point that I've been least successful in conveying.

After October 7th, a lot of people came to me accusing me in some ways or yelling at me that where did the field of Israel education go so wrong that our young people are now doing X, Y, and Z? The first group was like, how did so many graduates of Jewish day school, summer camps and youth groups end up at the encampments at universities? But it wasn't just on the right, so to speak.

Then they came to me from the left.

How come there are so many young Jewish people who are so oblivious to the suffering of Palestinians? It was coming from all angles that people were trying to tell me that we as a field, and we can argue what is a field and maybe that's interesting or not, but where do we go so wrong? And then it took me a while to realize that they actually were not, that wasn't the question they were asking me.

What they were asking me was some version of, why aren't my children more like me? And that could be a parent asking about their own individual child, a communal organization asking about the young people in their community, or a foundation.

It could be anybody, but they were asking some variation of that question.

But at least we know it when we see it, right? What do you make of that sort of fixation on one kind of anti-Semitism rather than the other kind of anti-Semitism?

In the course of innovating in Jewish education, how much pushback do you tend to get from the institutions you work with?

The pushback we get is from adults who feel really uncomfortable with young people coming out the other side of that educational experience, whatever that might mean, with an opinion differing to theirs.

And I got news to every adult and every parent and every grandparent.

Like, that's normal.

And if you tell a young person what they must believe and what they must think, there's a pretty good chance they're going to revolt and come out thinking something differently, even if it's just to annoy you.

Young people need to be exposed.

to multiple narratives, diverse perspectives, differing opinions, and as long as they've got enough information that we're giving them, that they're gonna reach their own conclusions.

Tell us about your book, Heroism and Hope, Recharging Israel Education in a Post-October Seventh World.

I'm not

going.

Queen.

Look, there are a couple of premises which are really important.

The first is that post-October 7th, many people, mainly adults, were coming to me and complaining or really agitated about the state of Israel and Jewish education, primarily saying, how is it possible that so many products of Jewish education could end up at the encampments at the universities around America? At the same time, as they were blaming Jewish education, they were also saying, now Jewish education, solve it so that more kids don't go there in the future.

So the actual problem was also part of the intended solution.

Right.

I'm not

If you had a magic wand and a bottomless, uh, budget, what would you wanna see done in, uh, self-respecting Jewish institutions?

Uh, so number one, we've mentioned before considering Israel education integral to all Jewish education.

Number two is a bit of backtracking because the truth is there was a lot of Israel education taking place in many of these institutions prior, but it was actually thinly veiled Israel advocacy and not education.

Now, just to explain this term, Israel advocacy was the deliberate attempt for many Jewish communal organizations to offer kids the tools that they needed to be able to combat anti-Israel rhetoric when they experienced it on campus.

So when someone said to you, "Zionism is racism," you knew the talking points back.

Now, advocacy is really important.

Lobbying is really important.

I- if you, if, you know, and, and these all mean we could go on a big digression that you and I have had about non-Zionist, post-Zionist, anti-Zionist, but when someone steps outsi- at what point someone steps outside of the tent, then it's not just being critical, but it's actually delegitimizing the very Zionist project itself.

Yeah.

And the teacher says, "Okay, I'm gonna teach it from multiple perspectives," and somebody in the school, the principal, the rabbi, the layperson, the foundation, the parent says, "What do you mean you're teaching the other perspective? We come to a Jewish school or a Jewish camp to learn the Jewish perspective," as if there's one Jewish perspective, by the way.

"But now you're gonna introduce the other perspective.

You can't do that here.

They'll get that, The New York Times will get it.

They don't need us to deliver us, you know, the Palestinian narrative on a, on a certain issue." And this is a, this is a real problem.

A, in today's day and age our kids are not stupid.

So, um, you know, can you maybe help us, walk us through, like what does that mean, good Israel is good Jewish educa- you know, just let's unpack it a bit.