Could he start on the top line come season start? Or are we going right to Gavin McKenna, Austin Matthews as your top set there?

yeah i mean there might be that temptation to do it to show the leafs are different under this new regime and go all offense and all flash and all that other stuff i i would be look if he if he shows in training camp he's ready for it and they want to move him up fast and he's earned it sure if they throw him into it right away i would be very skeptical of that being successful Like you really have to, I think they kind of have to ease them in a little bit.

I was on another pod where I was kind of doing line projections and I've written an article about line projections as well.

And I kind of, I kind of put McKenna into a hybrid 3-1 spot, like something where in defensive zone situations, If the third line's out, you're on the third line, but you can move him up to the front line if it's one of those situations where his attributes make sense and he's shown that he's ready.

So I actually had Nick Paul, who had actually played most of the last couple of years at left wing as opposed to center, just given how many centers that they did have, kind of on the left to start with Matthews and Roslevic.

Just to kind of take some of the defensive pressures away.

And Paul can kind of be that guy who's already established.

It was pretty crazy to think of some of the moves that were rumored to have been talked about, including one with True Living last season with Montreal, thinking that you would trade him in division for a guy who's not only young, but has seen strong development progression over the last two seasons.

Morgan Riley, number one defenseman for the Toronto Maple Leafs yet again.

I think when you look at it from a grand scheme of everything, it's not that Morgan Riley and the Maple Leafs may be better suited for a parting of ways.

It's more so that if the Leafs do it, what are they getting back in return in that spot? Can they get someone to take everything, and at the same time, there's just not a return of what they would fill in that spot that's just kind of out there right now.

Like, we always talk about top defensemen, depth centers, those are always the hardest to get in the NHL.

You almost kind of have to draft them.

Sometimes they come available via trade, but it's rare.

Or if it is, you have to have a huge ransom of picks and everything, and you're able to kind of do something like what Minnesota did with Quinn Hughes.

And not that these guys do this, but Dave, if you had the power to permanently ban a hockey cliche or multiple hockey cliches, because you, Lindsey, Dan, myself have heard probably the same six to eight hockey hundreds of times, which one or two would you permanently ban? And are they pucks in deep or one game at a time?

What do you make of that one?

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I had to look, and I couldn't believe it.

Uh, I, I mean, Colton Sissons being the fifth-highest-paid Leaf forward is not a sentence I would've ever thought I would say out of my mouth two days ago.

Like, it, it really was, "Oh, okay, well, the Leafs are kinda short on, on a left forward now after Matthews, Nylander, and Knies," and Tavares, of course, took that hometown discount, so he's not making that much more than Sissons is.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it just spoke to the type of player Sissons is and what the Leafs were lacking, which was depth at the center position and a right-handed depth at center position who has speed.

Like, when they got Nick Wong in that trade, in the sign-and-trade with Marner, speed wasn't necessarily the calling card of Nick Wong.

And w- is he a third-line guy on this team? Is he a fourth-line guy on this team? Can he be better than what he was last year?

What do you make of that one?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I had to look, and I couldn't believe it.

Uh, I, I mean, Colton Sissons being the fifth highest paid Leaf forward is not a sentence I would have ever thought I would say out of my mouth two days ago.

Like, it, it really was, "Oh, okay, well, the Leafs are kinda short on, on a left forward though after Matthews, Nylander, and Knies," and Tavares, of course, took that hometown discount, so he's not making that much more than Sissons is.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it just spoke to the type of player Sissons is and what the Leafs were lacking, which was depth at the center position and a right-handed depth at center position who has speed.

And is he a third line guy on this team? Is he a fourth line guy on this team? Can he be better than what he was last year?

What kind of player do you think Toronto could get for one of those goaltenders if, in fact, John Chayka and his staff are floating one of those goaltenders to be traded?

Yeah, that's a tough one because, I mean, teams need depth goaltending and there isn't a lot out on the market.

And so you would think you'd be able to ask for something top tier.

The problem with that is Stolarz and Wall are coming off really bad years.

And the problem with Stolarz, too, is that expansion hasn't even kicked in yet.

It kicks in in two weeks.

Yeah.

It's a bit of a circus.

Mm.

It's not that hard to hop on a, a jet, go down to Arizona, or do whatever you have to do to meet with someone.

So clearly there's, there's something going on there.

Uh, and, and with all the reports out about what Auston Matthews wants to see, he's probably reacting the same that we reacted, which is he wants to, to see and not hear.

Like, I don't think hearing is gonna be enough for Auston Matthews at this point anymore.

I think he needs to actually see what John Cheka does.

It could explain the, the vagaries of the details that are kind of being kind of pushed forth towards the media in terms of what the vision is.

Wow

Hmm.

It's not that hard to hop on a, a jet, go down to Arizona, or do whatever you have to do to meet with someone.

So clearly there's, there's something going on there.

Uh, and, and with all the reports out about what Auston Matthews wants to see, he's probably reacting the same that we reacted, which is he wants to, to see and not hear.

Like, I don't think hearing is gonna be enough for Auston Matthews at this point anymore.

I think he needs to actually see what John Cheka does.

It could explain the, the vagaries of the details that are kind of being kind of pushed forth towards the media in terms of what the vision is.

Wow

What was your overall impression from the tone around that team? And after gathering all the information from all the interviews, what, what was your overall, um, I guess takeaway from, from that day yesterday?

Yeah, I would say, I mean, Auston Matthews obviously talking about his future at the club was probably number one.

Uh, just the fact that maybe there was an opportunity where he could have kind of commit and said, "Hey, uh, I wanna be a Leaf forever," or, or all that kinda stuff.

I wasn't surprised that he didn't do that.

Um, there is a lot of uncertainty that's coming around here in terms of who the manager's gonna be.

And if I've known anything about Matthews over the last 10 years, he's very pragmatic.

It's why he signed this four-year deal, not an eight-year deal, right? It was, it was a lot of kinda waiting and see where things go, and seeing what the window is for that opportunity.

Like, just do it together, man.

Just do it together, man.

Yeah, I think Keith really likes Craig.

Like, I think there's an established relationship there now where that and with everything that came out in that athletic story and, you know, the Leafs got burned a long time ago and they had Mike Babcock and they had to pay him for four years.

And that really changed a lot of the sentiment around MLSC of paying for a lot of redundancy.

Not that...

they don't can't afford it or anything like that.

And they certainly are doing with Brad tree living where he's got a season remaining, but two full years is a lot too.

So I'm guessing that you're aligned with ChatGPT and AI, but maybe not too much to that level.

wasn't even

signed because it happened in September but the trades are different but the problem is he was working under Brandon Shanahan uh in a lot of these trade scenarios where you know there's a lot of trades that have been reported about the what if that maybe we would be looking at it differently right yeah Like if Marner would have agreed to that deal with Rantanen, for example, and Rantanen was a leaf and how different things could have been that way.

I know we're talking about a lot of what ifs, but there were these attempts, right? Like there's all this.

Now Shanahan's gone and Brad has a little bit more of a, like a direct line to some of these moves that he can be judged solely for that.

It's tough because this is a weird year in the ownership as well, that there just wasn't an appetite to do anything drastic, right? So, so there is that element of it, but I can't see them be in a situation where they don't do something where they show one sign of getting some assets back for the future.

They have to, it looks bad.

And, you know, I don't buy the whole narrative that they're looking for their jobs and won't do what's best for the franchise because that reflects poorly on that.

I think every team who considers themselves a contender will be looking for that depth piece on the blue line.

How surprised were you to see the effort the Maple Leafs put forward?

You know, I, I'm actually not surprised by it anymore.

Maybe I'm, I have watched too many Leaf games over the years and I've been able to point to examples of it in the past, but the Leafs have shown whenever there have been a massive amount of injuries or, or particularly a lot in one position, that they seem to kind of be able to overcome it, whether it's, uh, it's a short-term thing or, or whatever the case may be.

Like, I remember two seasons ago when their defense was absolutely decimated and everyone thought that they were ready for a dip, but for whatever reason, uh, they were able to just kind of overcome with guys like Mac Hollowell, who didn't play a lot in the NHL and, and playing on defense and, and replacing guys like Morgan Rielly, who were suspended, and, and some other guys at key positions.

So, um, it doesn't surprise me that much anymore.

Whether they can do it on a long, sustained level is, is certainly a question.

But, um, I think the good news for the Leafs in this regard is when they do get some of these guys back, is that they just seem to be playing more confident a- and they're, they're reminiscent of what they've been able to do last year, which is play well, play well with the puck, and then when the play is hemmed into their own zone, get solid goal tending, which they've been able to do.

Can you take us through the most pressing issues facing the Maple Leafs from that perspective?

How surprised were you to see the effort the Maple Leafs put forward?

You know, I, I'm actually not surprised by it anymore.

Maybe I'm, I have watched too many Leaf games over the years, and I've been able to point to examples of it in the past, but the Leafs have shown, whenever there have been a massive amount of injuries or, or particularly a lot in one position, that they seem to kind of be able to overcome it, whether it's, it's a short-term thing or, or whatever the case may be.

Like, I remember two seasons ago when their defense was absolutely decimated and everyone thought that they were ready for a dip, but for whatever reason, uh, they were able to just kind of overcome with guys like Mac Hollowell, who didn't play a lot in the NHL, and, and playing on defense and, and replacing guys like Morgan Rielly, who were suspended, and, and some other guys at key positions.

So, um, it doesn't surprise me that much anymore.

Whether they can do it on a long, sustained level is, is certainly a question.

But, um, I think the good news for the Leafs i- in this regard is when they do get some of these guys back, is that they just seem to be playing more confident a- and they're, they're reminiscent of what they've been able to do last year, which is play well, play well with the puck, and then when the play is hemmed into their own zone, get solid goaltending, which they've been able to do.

Can you take us through the most pressing issues facing the Maple Leafs from that perspective?

Do you think that he was ever the right guy for this team?

I think...

I- it's, it's kinda hard, because from a systemic standpoint, I 100% agree that I didn't think he was necessarily the right type of coach.

But then everything I learned about how he operates kind of changed my mind on that, where it was almost kind of like an NFL-type situation, where if you have a head coach that can kinda be the voice and can kind of, you know, motivate guys, but then you, you can delegate properly and have the best OC and DC that do all the nuts and bolts of it, and you can kind of stay out of it that way, then it could work.

And so I thought, okay, given what he's been able to do last year, uh, delegated all of the defensive stuff to Lane Lambert a- and, and really did kind of get the Leafs to play a different way.

Like, that, that actually did happen, uh, despite some of the underlying analytics.

Like, keeping everything out of the interior and just playing a tougher, defensive type of hockey that translates better to the playoffs, I, I think he's done a good job in that regard.

Yep.

Do you think that he was ever the right guy for this team?

team?I think it's, it's kind of hard, because from a systemic standpoint, I 100% agree that I didn't think he was necessarily the right type of coach.

But then everything I learned about how he operates kind of changed my mind on that, where it was almost kind of like an NFL-type situation, where if you have a head coach that can kind of be the voice and can kind of, you know, motivate guys, but then you, you can delegate properly and have the best OC and DC that do all the nuts and bolts of it, and you can kind of stay out of it that way, then it could work.

And so I thought, "Okay, given what he's been able to do last year, ah, delegated all the defensive stuff to Lane Lambert, a- and, and really did kind of get the Leafs to play a different way." Like, that, that actually did happen, uh, despite some of the underlying analytics.

Like, keeping everything out of the interior and just playing a tougher defensive type of hockey that translates better to the playoffs, I, I think he's done a good job in that regard.

But all that's disappeared now, and I don't know why that's disappeared.

I mean, there's theories about it with, you know, Mitch Marner's been talked about and all the things he's brought in the regular season.

How much is mo- losing Marner contributing to that lack of enthusiasm this season? And is that code for guys like that have been on this team think that the window is now kind of closed, because Marner's not here and there was no suitable replacement for him?