It was really good.

Yeah, and you're absolutely right.

Both through cultural style and norm, Pacific Mogg are generally very diplomatic and very cautious, and that's through a cultural norm, but it's also through the real politics of Australia's role in the Pacific.

Australia remains the biggest funder of development aid in the Pacific by a long shot, probably in the order of about 40%, 45% of Pacific funds in that sort of category.

And, you know, it's hard to, you know, it's hard to bite the hand that feeds in that sense.

I've often found a comparable thing in relation to nuclear politics, Kevin, and in relation to AUKUS.

Like, there's deep concern.

People here are rushing out to watch, but people rushed out to watch the cloud and the mushroom cloud and they talked about the sound and the things rattled, but it's done as if it was something quite wonderful rather than something quite threatening.

Yeah

...

in their own vivid memories, uh, and expected to get on with the job as tired as they are, as fatigued as they are.

And we know that when you're fatigued, you can become quite emotional, and that opens the door for post-traumatic stress to enter.

So I thought, "What could we do to alter that?" And that's where my thesis came from, uh, from being able to come up with a process of being able to help the truckie, uh, involve the employer, involve government in such a way that nobody had to out themselves, uh, because, you know, to put your hand up for emotional pain for Aussie blokes especially, you know, can be seen as a bit of a weakness, although it's not But how can we come up with a process that would take control of that, look after the employee, look after the employer, build a stronger bond between them, and also stop any vicarious trauma that would happen at home with the wife and the children, and how that would affect them long term as well? So we came up with that process, and we actually shopped it around and didn't get a lot of traction, but the Australian New Zealand Transport Journal published it back in 2024.

[laughs] See ya.

See you, mate.

Thank you.

And why hasn't Australia signed this treaty, the Nuclear Ban Treaty, given it is an enthusiastic supporter of the Non-Proliferation Treaty and also the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty?

Yeah, and there's much that Australia has done in weapons of mass destruction and in trying to foster international action and awareness around weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons.

There is a stall on this one.

Your question, Fran, is, like, what's the major obstacle? And you could put it in a word and say it's Washington.

You know, the nuclear weapons states have made it clear that they don't want any constraint on how they deploy and where they deploy and what they deploy in their nuclear weaponry, and Washington's made that very clear.

So we need to, as a nation, as a sovereign nation, look at that and then say, how can we navigate this? Because we have longstanding economic, military and cultural ties with the US and they're growing.

And there are many countries... that have equally important roles and relationships with the US that have said, no, we draw the line at nuclear weapons.

But I guess the question that so often gets in the way of progress here is that if the nuclear powers aren't going to do it, then what point is other countries signing on to a treaty like this?