And, you know, so why is that such a persistent problem these days?

It was a real surprise for me getting my first CMO job, and then my second CMO job, to be around an executive team that were really smart people, highly accomplished people, people that were experts at what they did, finance, operations, whatever, but they didn't understand marketing.

Like, not at all.

Like, you know, I thought going into these jobs I'd be doing, I'd have to sell them on doing Dave's marketing, you know, my point of view on what needed to be done, and, and in reality, I spent a lot of time just selling them on doing marketing.

Like, like, the right sort of marketing.

And I think what I discovered over a period of time was they mistook activity for marketing, and certainly purposeful marketing.

And activity to them looked like marketing.

Right.

[laughs]

... we can get to.

But yeah, you know, when I, when he came to, um, when he came to Sacramento State, that was the connection.

When I was talked to him on the phone, I think, I'll never forget, I was in Germany recruiting and, uh, I got on the phone and his mom said she's from Australia.

And he was...

I'm like, "Man, what?" And so that was the connection.

I was like, "Man, the first thing you need to do is get a passport, you know, and, and work on that for the next step of your career." And then obviously when he, when he finished playing, he called me about two teams.

Um, how did that, how did that come about and, and what's that like doing what you're doing over in the States with college basketball, but then coming back to Australia and being part of that environment?