And 40,000 this year, Darren, which is, in fairness, is progress.

It's progress and other government spokespersons will set out figures.

The difficulty is the starting point in relation to this.

Of course, the population is an awful lot higher than it was those years ago.

The demand, the impact of the under-delivery for so long has a cumulative impact.

And you're absolutely right.

We had figures not that long ago about the amount of young people who are planning on leaving the country.

It's a global crisis.

line said something along the lines of, it's an extreme circumstance, yes, but also some parents want particular schools.

So this is like the deaf school was the example that was given at the PAC today.

I think, you know, there's a couple of really important things that came out of PAC today.

And you can see as a constituency TD, the issue of school transport, you could set your clock by it.

You know, they have this criteria of eligible and concessionary.

And there are any amount of anomalies that come up that are really frustrating.

There's You know, tens of thousands, 181,000 approximately children carried on school transport.

Does that explain some of the growth in providing school transport,

Absolutely.

It runs contrary to the policy which is supposed to be encouraging people on to public transport.

And I think, you know, what we have here, and I think it was important just to get these figures, and I have to say I thought it unusual that I had to chase them for six months or nearly six months to get those figures.

I think it's important to push this information out into the public realm and also to flag this concept of lost kilometres percentage.

I think it's something that people will now track on the 103 and other services, because as you say, and it is the case, like what we have had heretofore is lots of really bad experiences on the 103 and other services, but, you know, a flowery language back from Bus Erin, you know, an acknowledgement of difficulties, but nothing exactly empirical.

And we can track We can track the cancelled services on a daily basis.

We know there are helpful online services there.

that

Darren, how is it that that has been, that that is being brought in or is planned to be brought in to remove diagnosis as a requirement? Is it not because it takes so long to get a diagnosis?

Yeah, I think this is an issue and thanks for covering Adrian because it has blown up as a major issue in education quarters in the last couple of weeks.

We know that At the back end of last year, the Department of Disability and Equality and Children in the form of Norma Foley said that there were going to be significant changes in relation to assessment of need.

There's an argument there that what the government are doing are withdrawing the only entitlement you have, which is to an assessment of need within six months.

And there's consternation in relation to that, but it has that move has real implications in terms of education, because one of the things they said at that time was they would be withdrawing the need for an assessment of need and a diagnosis and the associated reports for access to a school place.

Now, that's puts on a responsibility onto the Department of Education who have been scrambling over the last number of months to try and figure out what the impact of that would be and how it would look.

And you know, and I've been on your show many times before, talking about the lack of resources for schools, the lack of, whether it be special education teachers or SNAs or physical space.

Maybe it is a band-aid, but it is a help for those children who've yet to be diagnosed.

And we did make an advancement in this budget, but we will continue to push for not just similar advancements in the future, but an acceleration of that.

Darren? Yeah, I think, look, I agree entirely with Shea in terms of the need to move away from crisis to a plan here.

And I think we need to move to multi-annual funding.

I think, you know, every person in this situation should have a plan in place for them and that plan should be known to everyone.

the HSE and to the local authorities and there should be coordination in relation to it.

The difficulty is that we haven't sufficient progress over time.

It's clear what needs to happen and I think the investment has to come.

done do you think?

Well,

it's all incredibly strange to me, I have to say.

And I have to say, I wonder what's going on here.

What's behind this? Because I have my suspicions that it isn't a case of just making sure that commitments are delivered on.

I know, for example, the department and RTE were at the Public Accounts Committee giving an update in July and there was no indication that progress wasn't being made or that there were real concerns.

either from RT or from the department.

So to come at the 11th hour without any notice or notification that this €20 million has been withdrawn, I think was a real shock.

Maybe this is what it looks

Is that something that you could live with?

But I think what's very clear to me, and I go as far back as the teachers' conferences and spokesperson for education, teachers' conferences in Easter of this year, anyone who attended any one of those knew that workers, public sector workers, similar to the private sector colleagues, are under serious pressure and we're ready for industrial action up to and including strike action.

And that's what's come to fruition.

And it's come to fruition because government have been doing things like, well, we made a public announcement.

Where are you? That is not the way to do engagement.

That is not the way to do engagement.

Ultimately, we are now going to take the lead in relation to.

And

Well,

it's all incredibly strange to me, I have to say.

And I have to say, I wonder what's going on here.

What's behind this? Because I have my suspicions that it isn't a case of just making sure that commitments are delivered on.

I know, for example, the department and RTE were at the Public Accounts Committee giving an update in July and there was no indication that progress wasn't being made or that there were real concerns.

either from RT or from the department.

So to come at the 11th hour without any notice or notification that this €20 million has been withdrawn, I think was a real shock.

Maybe this is what it looks

Darren, what would you do differently if you were in government, if you were Minister for Education?

Yeah, I think it's actually very straightforward what needs to happen.

And it's that real and meaningful engagement that Eric mentioned there.

And that's what's missing here.

And it hasn't just been missing in the last few days.

It's been missing for months in real terms.

I remember, you know, the teachers' conferences happened At Easter time, Easter was in early April this year, which is six months ago, and at that stage I went to the INTO, the ASTI and the TUI conferences and it was very clear to me at that stage that teachers were very angry and that they were up for industrial action, up to and including strike action if needs be, and that was talking about the last public sector pay deal.

What payments

... might be somewhat different.

No, no, no, not, not, not at all.

Uh, um, not, not at all.

And the argument there is, because what have we heard from the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance? We've heard from the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance, "Well, we have, we, we can't act until all of Europe acts." And this was the exact same argument that he made a number of, of years ago, when in fact, it's the opposite.

Uh, the opposite is the case.

You are better to, to go on your own in relation to this.

It is far less complicated.

Okay, so what, what sorts of, what sorts of companies would be, uh, would be caught by this, uh, this windfall tax?

One of the things, though, that you have highlighted, which I heard about yesterday, which really shocked me, if I'm to be honest, is that 100,000 hot meals go uneaten every day.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think what we are seeing and the main point that we're making at this stage and that we wanted to see out of these reviews is that we would directly relate the quality of the food, the amount of waste that there is to the type of model.

And we essentially have, for want of a better term, an airplane food type model where you have a number of very large, a small number of very large providers who are taking food, who are cooking it and heating it off-site, who are bringing it into school.

It's been reheated there.

It's been served in single-use containers.

It's travelling the length and breadth of the country in some instances.

Would that really work, though?

And

I attended in my capacity as education and youth spokesperson for Sinn Féin, also as a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Artificial Intelligence, but also as a parent of young kids and someone who's just really interested in what's happening in the tech world, in the online world, in the social media world and the the impact it's having on children and society more generally, and wondering about what types of measures, controls need to be put in place, if possible at all.

And the report yesterday highlights very clearly the need for such controls and interventions, because what's very clear, I think, to everybody, and I think everybody You know, the report yesterday, it was quite stark, but probably for the vast majority of people, including listening this morning, probably not overly surprising if they think about their own community, their own experience online.

maybe their own school community or their own children themselves.

And what it is saying is that despite the fact that...

I think there were three things that I took away from it, and you've touched on a number of them there, Adrian.

One is that a year, more than a year into... a so-called new regulatory regime where certain platforms were supposed to be age protected.

No, absolutely.

I'll be talking in a moment to... a mother affected by this whose daughter is one of the children without a place Audrey I'll come to you in just a moment but Darren O'Rourke let me just ask you what you mean by that that key recommendations from the school transport scheme review have not been implemented

Yeah, and thanks for covering this, Adrian, and you're absolutely right.

This is an issue that comes up every single year.

You could almost set your clock by it.

And from a policy perspective, and I think from everybody's perspective, you understand that if kids have to travel a distance to school, that the best option for them is to get on the bus rather than jumping in the car and congesting the whole place up.

That is the policy objective.

And there's been lots of discussion.

Now, Darren, just finally on this, is all lost at this point? Is that the end of this conversation for this school year and the parents that are affected or the kids that are affected have no choice but to suck it up and make alternative arrangements? You there, Darren?

What exactly are you talking about there?

Yeah.

So what, what I'm talking about here is, and, and I, I think it interesting sometimes where we hear from government and repeatedly, um, you know, from the opposition benches, and indeed some on the government benches will criticize government around their failings in terms of education.

So whether we talk in terms of the teacher recruitment retention crisis, you know, teach- a shortage of teachers, um, failure to hold onto them.

In many cases, that means teachers, um, you know, not being in front of the classroom and a, a shortage and, or teaching out of field or, so mean- meaning that they're unqualified to teach the subjects that they're supposed to be teaching.

We have, um, you know, the s- you saw the protests earlier in the year in relation to SNAs and the shortage of SNAs, and then re- uh, failure of recognition and rec- respect for, for SNAs, and they still don't have a workforce development plan.

They still don't have a, a, a new contract or new circular in place.

But you obviously believe that that's mostly, uh, the goodwill of, uh, the staff in our education system.

Darren, do we, I know we don't have a, a published list, but anecdotally, do we know how many kids currently, and bearing in mind that it is only a couple of weeks out from school starting, don't have a place that is suitable to their needs?

Yeah, we, we do, we don't have a, an indication.

Um, we repeatedly, and not just ourselves in Sinn Féin, but across the opposition benches, we repeatedly ask the, the minister of the department and the NCSE, the National Council for Special Education, for an update in relation to these figures.

They meet on a weekly basis.

They have these figures.

They know exactly where things stand, but they never publish them, and, and that is a frustration.

It's a fru- frustration for ourselves, but it's particularly a frustration for, for parents and children trying to access places.

Okay

But how is it then that in a number of schools, in primary schools, there are 2,000 children in Meath specifically, dramatically over that pupil-teacher ratio? How is that happening? Well, we have to be

very careful in terms of talking about averages.

So, for example, there are schools across the state, and including in County Meath, with less than 100 children.

So, therefore, you know, the class sizes in, you know, in small schools, and I think small schools have a really important role to play in our education system, and they need to be protected.

And by recognizing reducing class sizes, we can protect small schools.

But of course, the issue is that small schools are bringing down those averages, whereas we have in County Meath, you know, large urban areas, increasing populations.

You have it in, you know, along the commuter belt and in Navon, the county town, where you have very large class sizes in excess of 30.

OK, so in terms of here in this region, in County Meath, with over 2,000 children being taught in classes of 30 pupils or more, are we talking about, I assume we're talking about specific schools that have this issue? Absolutely.

Is a lot of this planning not at local authority level where the problem is?

No, it's, it's 100% at, at local authority level.

Um, and, and the difficulty around it is, as, as you'll be well aware, um, the power at, at decision-making level is largely in, not in your local councilors, but in the unelected officials, the planners, the, um, the executives there, and they are guided by national policy and, and guidelines.

But actually, those national policies and guidelines are really, really weak.

Um, so what happens once every five years, and it's going to move to once every 10 years, is your local councilors essentially have the opportunity to, to zone A, B, C, and D, um, color in a map, as I would say.

But the, the, the difficulty then is that the local authority then looks at every application in splendid isolation.

So there isn't, there isn't a master plan, for example, for a community.

But is it, is it too late now?

OK, go on, let her make the point

first.

The programme for government sets out to reform the triple lock.

That's not what this legislation is trying to do.

And that's why those Fianna Fáil backbenchers are up in arms.

They rightly should be, I think, proud of their legacy of multilateralism being the direction of travel for our foreign policy over many decades.

And Frank Aitken, and I know there are members... of Fianna Fáil who feel that and Micheál Martin seems very happy to chuck that out the window despite the fact that only just over 10 years ago he admitted and acknowledged and criticised Fine Gael for their attempts to do this because he said that the triple lock is at the core of Irish neutrality.

So trust yourselves is what I say to my colleagues within Fianna Fáil.

As are the homelessness numbers and price and

rent.

Other proof that is very clear and is counted in trauma for children and for families is the increase in number who are homeless.

I do think it would be really, really important that we identify and because I feel that there is untold damage being perpetrated on these children in particular.

And I think it's a national disgrace.

And I think the report and I know there's a focus on the no fault eviction ban and Sinn Féin does support that on a temporary basis.

But I think this is a significant...

It's a little bit more social and affordable in the last year or so than

quid pro quo, Darren O'Rourke, that has to be there? Yeah, pay increases for sure, but productivity as well?

Well, I think there are fundamental questions here and it's really important to get around the table.

And I fully support the union ask in terms of the framework that should apply in relation to that.

But I have to say, as my party's education spokesperson, that I know firsthand from teachers and from school communities that they are very frustrated with the current state of affairs, as Kevin mentioned earlier.

The existing agreement, not fully implemented, certainly as it relates to the local bargaining clauses.

So there is, in my opinion, a breach of trust there in relation to that.

And I think, you know, I attended the teaching union conferences in Isar.

What's a realistic timeline, though? Well, I

Darren, you obviously believe that the TV license funding model is completely broken.

Yeah, I do, Adrian, and thanks for talking about this issue.

It's something that I raised with the Minister in the Dáil last Thursday, literally asking the question, you know, what are the TV licence sales like this year compared to last year, compared to the year before and the year before? It is probably unsurprising for listeners.

Year on year, there is a significant decrease.

And if we go back to 2019, just seven years ago now, there were over a million TV licenses sold.

There was a significant drop.

in that period, 2022 to 2023, when the scandals were very much in focus.

But literally, is that not just using... coming up with an excuse not to pay your TV licence, which we should all be paying.

What's the difference between the two?

Well, we know, for example, that last year, where we were in a very similar position, the government had said that they had provided for every child.

And many of those children, including I can think of Finglas as an example, many of those children had an offer of a school place at that time.

they're still not at school.

They're not at school because the physical place, the supports in terms of teaching and SNA supports haven't been provided.

So what we want is for every child who has been identified, although the government won't give us the figures in terms of the amount of children that need a special class or a special school place, but they know the number.

And we want a commitment from government, a guarantee from government that every one of those children will have a physical school place in September and that they'll have the SET, the teaching support and the SMA support.

But have you any sense, even anecdotally, of how many may be in that cohort of being offered a place that doesn't exist?

Your reaction to this news?

This time yesterday morning, Shane, people were getting up and going to work or going about their business and in that area they were hearing or coming upon road closures and diversions and then over the course of the day the details of why there were those road closures and diversions began to materialise and I think people's worst fears were realised a multi-vehicle collision involving heavy vehicles numerous injuries and two fatalities two men that went to work yesterday morning and didn't come home and it is a devastating tragedy and it comes so soon after recent tragedies on the road in that region and Meath and Midlouth and Monaghan and North Dublin and it is absolutely devastating for the families involved, for their friends, for their loved ones and I think on behalf of the whole community those families are in our thoughts and prayers and we extend our deepest condolences to them.

It is absolutely devastating in the run into Christmas for people.

I know there are a number of injuries as well some of them serious and just to wish them well I know they are in the thoughts of the local community as well and hope that they make a full recovery I think for anyone your immediate thought is no one can imagine what it's like to get that call from the Gardaí or the visit from the Gardaí with notice that a loved one has been killed on the roads and it is really really devastating

But I understand you do know one of the families affected by this.

Yeah, the extended families, I do.

And, you know, it is problematic.

absolutely devastating for them and for both families involved.

Darren, what exactly is in this legislation?

So we have a legislation before the Dáil this evening at second stage and it arises out of a number of concerns raised by parents across the state and also the competition authority, the CCPC.

Our legislation would introduce a suite of measures.

In the first instance, it would make that every school across the state would be obliged to have an affordable school uniforms policy.

That's different than what they have at the minute.

It would make schools have to look at ensuring that there are a minimum use of branded items, so embroidered items, and we're familiar with jumpers, polo shirts, tracksuit bottoms, tracksuit tops, jackets, increasingly demanded of parents.

So there needs to be a written affordable school uniform policy and minimum use of those embroidered items and ensuring that there's stability in the uniform policy that doesn't change from year to year, support for second-hand uniforms or annual swaps or sales, and compassionate enforcement of uniform rules where financial hardship has been identified.

Can you enforce that?