Does that resonate, this idea of needing to be validated, needing someone you can trust?

Absolutely, but it's the extent of the kind of impact that that relationship with Elizabeth's had on you Muriela that's quite astounding given the adversity and the trauma that you experienced previously and there's something about having met Elizabeth and I know what she stands for and what she walks towards as well, the real passion there in terms of sort of family finding but also kind of relational care and being human in your relationships where there's it still feels extraordinary it still feels extraordinary that you were able to recover from that kind of adversity and you know that kind of role of the hope keeper that Elizabeth maybe played in terms of sort of taking you towards an alternative to what you'd experienced and actually sort of try and reconcile trust not only in her or build trust not only in her but in yourself and in your relationship with the world.

Is that kind of something that...

Because it feels really transformative and quite unusual, you know, despite what we're seeing on through.

These relationships... do happen and do occur and do grow and, you know, but there's some drama, you know, this is quite unusually transformative and quite dramatic in terms of the timescale you're talking about as well, Mirella, you know, the turnaround for you in relation to sort of visiting your biological mother in

It's really about, I mean, Mirella has survived, but in the many children that you see, we've talked about falling through the cracks, the trauma that is experienced at a very young age.

I mean, what I'm interested in through the conversation that we're having with Mirella and the conversations that we've had most recently with Kevin Campbell and Elizabeth Wendell is this sort of need for human rights.

a contact, a need for genuine humanity within the system, the system that shouldn't be a foil for genuine connection, for deep connection with people.

Please

... you're c...

One of the things you talked about that, that kinda helped, I felt like I really needed to urgently ask you was in relation to sort of the, the, the idea of treatment programs within institutions and, and, and sort of, you know, the, that supporting young people to kinda through, through thera- therapeutic interventions or, or, or, or psychiatric treatment or, you know, to, to try and sorta address behavioral issues and, and, and kinda well-versed on, on these, these being adaptive behaviors in res- in, in response or reaction to, to, to, to, to trauma or adversity.

But, you know, we, we kinda struggle...

We've struggled to hold onto this, this idea that it's relationships and the environment through which young people can make further adaptations.

And, and, and possibly you are...

I take the point that that's limited within institutions and, and, and probably easier expedited mo- when you're far, far more effectively expedited in, in kinship arrangements.

Danny, fir- firstly, what, you know, given what Kevin said and what we've heard, what is the best thing to do? Should government do it? Should, um, you know, uh, care, people like Care Visions do it? And, and what should it be?

What do you think about what, what Elizabeth was, was saying there?

Lots of things that are very relevant to, to the here and now for us as an organization and within Scotland.

And we, we are seeing a kind of movement of young people from institutional care and, and even s- our home care to, to kinship care.

And, um, and that, that feels like it's, it's kinda politically expedient, but it's also k- k- kind of morally, potentially the right thing to do.

And, and I'm just struck, you, you mentioned, you know, Father Greg Boyle.

I mean, he, he, he...

I thought you were gonna beat me to the punch with a quote, but a compassion that can stand in awe of what the poor have to carry rather than stand in judgment of how they carry it.

Danny, does, does, does that resonate with you?

What do you think?

There's a lot there, isn't there? Steve, I'm fascinated by Billy's story.

It's a story...

I've worked in residential childcare in various roles for more than 30 years and it's all throughout my adult life, really.

Billy's story is really familiar to me and it raises some questions about what we might do to stop young people who are victims, victims of circumstance, victims of exploitation, victims of poverty, to... stop them from becoming perpetrators and one of the kind of dissatisfactions I think across the systems whether it's in Scotland or England or other parts of the world is on the one hand we're looking to nurture development, we're looking to nurture some sort of recovery for young people that need that but they get to a certain stage in life where that job's maybe not done or half done and young people hit the criminal justice system, the youth justice system, then the criminal justice system, and the kind of ethical dimensions to that, the ideological dimensions to that, the kind of almost archaic dimensions of how we treat people who've committed crimes, who might be a risk to others or risks to themselves.

It feels like quite a collision for those young people.

And I wonder if you've any thoughts on... criminal justice reform, youth justice reform, and how that might kind of better match our aspirations that we have for inclusion, for recovery, and for hope for these young people.

is significant.