And what I find interesting is that like, I may be incredibly structured in my work conversations, but like, less so in my personal conversations and i find i'm longing for for for for both in either in that i'd like a little more structure in personal conversations and a little less in my work conversations sure just get exhausting either way now how is that

common well common i don't know i have there's a lot of people in the world but i will tell you what i know from the clients that i work with um The beginning of every meeting that leaders have is a tremendous opportunity to create a moment of real connection before we get to the content.

And I think that's often a missed opportunity.

Let everyone remember that.

A little moment of connection.

A couple of minutes while everyone's feeding in.

Some leaders are in the camp of small talk is dumb.

That wasn't part of the deal.

You have to tell them about the book too and the podcast.

Yeah, I know.

Okay, so maybe I need to hit my marks.

Um, I-- so yeah, so I started a c- a podcast about designing conversations.

I did my first interviews for it in twenty sixteen.

I was working with a group in twenty fifteen in Australia.

This goes way back, but they called their facilitative practice Conversation Design, and I was very confronted by that.

And so tell us what that is and, and how it's beneficial to us as we move forward, progress in, in, in our careers.