So how do you go about doing exactly that, if the question makes sense?

yeah i think you're absolutely right like certain types of writing lend themselves very much to like getting a bit carried away with it with the pros and stuff and travel is definitely one of them so i think it's kind of keeping it in check a little bit i mean it's interesting the thing of i remember when i was at news associates yeah even having conversations with people my fellow trainees about like you know some people are more some some people are kind of journalists first and writers second some people are writers first and journalists second and like i was always in the second category and it was kind of like I was drawn to journalism as a career because writing was basically the only thing that I was like half decent at so it was like well I bet I may as well be a writer and what careers can you be a writer in and journalism you know it didn't it didn't seem realistic to just start writing books out of the blue and sadly couldn't can't really afford to just do that and had to go pay the bills somehow so journalism just seemed like a good fit for me for that reason And so kind of the writing side in terms of like getting words out onto the page is that's the part that comes easily to me.

And the part that is more difficult for me is the kind of the journalistic rigor side of things of finding sources, lining them up, and, you know, just putting in all that work, which is so important, which the writing needs with this kind of thing as a platform, because otherwise you have nothing to write about.

And then that's when it comes across really sort of vapid.

Because I think like, really like, and it's another thing that comes a little bit with experience and with age, I think, I'm sure if I were to read stuff that I wrote when I was 18 19 20 even older than that I would probably cringe at it a bit because it probably is more flowery and stuff than what I would right now

some of them in the uk okay so i'm going to have to press you for let's go with three places three places out of the 30 guys more than 30 guidebooks you've done that immediately come to mind as guidebooks that you're particularly proud of or that you had experiences that were well they just lasting experiences that you remember

okay Well, I'd say definitely the first one I did, that Indonesia one is obviously like a big one for me personally, because it kind of opened the door to everything else that I've done since then.

But it was also just kind of an amazing experience.