That's how you create a society that is innovating, that is, is a total capitalistic market that's providing opportunities for people because they don't feel trapped with the, with the debt.

You're absolutely right.

That, that debt is, is, i- is a huge albatross around people, uh, people's necks and, and, and, uh, holding them down and from their potential, as you say, and we need to actually shift that model.

You know, um, the debt levels are, are nowhere near the same here in Canada, but we still have, you know, you know, unequal I'd say, you know, you know, um, uh, um, institutions, some of whom have healthy en- endowments and some of them, some of who don't.

But, um...

And, and actually tuition is actually capped here, here, um, in, in, in, in, in, um, Canada across different jurisdictions, so.

Yeah

... and, you know, places in between as well.

question I've been pondering as we've been looking forward to our conversation, and that's, Do highly experienced leaders become better at seeing complexity and responding to it or just more comfortable recognizing that they don't completely understand it?

That's like a chicken and egg sort of conversation.

And I think, you know, like everything, I think there's no, you know, it depends.

I think it depends on the leader.

I think some have had more experience and, you know, ability to adapt.

And I think others may be coming to this after a few different failures and after false starts and perhaps had to rethink how they approach things.

So what I'm trying to do, I think, is actually speed up the process in some ways so that people can actually get to understand the approach a little bit faster than actually having to experience it and sort of organically and innately sort of appreciate it.

What would you advise that I do next?

So take a minute and, and describe, uh, the practical habits of a leader who is a strong sense-maker.

So I think, you know, that's a great question, Hugh, and, and it's at the heart of my research as well.

So, um, you know, a great sense-making leader does two things, uh, you know, at, at the same time, um, and they're anchored, it's anchored by purpose, and that's the purpose of yourself but also tied to the purpose of the institution you're leading as well.

And it's actually about, you know, making sense o- of yourself, and that's what I call sort of inner sense-making.

So it's being aware of actually how you show up.

It's being aware o- of, of, you know, um, what you're observing around you as well and how you're observing your own reactions.

It's about recognizing how you show up under stress.

So let's use this as a bridge to, you know, how do we recognize p- who people are and going to outer sense-making, reading people and reading the system that we're, we're operating, we're leading in.

What do you find you get involved in next, either which creates the whole process to stall or that moves it forward at speed? Where do you find yourself going next?

So I think one of the biggest challenges that these organizations have faced next is actually getting alignment around their senior team.

Because they're such big organizations, you have a lot of people doing their own things and trying to do them all independently as well.

And sometimes actually pushing back, I guess, at internal partners and others.

Sounds a lot like a regular business as well, I know.

And so trying to spend time to be able to get people agreeing to the central sort of narrative, the central goals as well.

You can call it purpose.

So when it comes to your own research and you've produced a model, tell us more about that so that I can hear and everybody listening can hear how that gets applied and where you've brought that in.

This, and so tell us about the rest of your career to up to where you are to now.

now.Okay.

So, so yeah, I took a little bit of a interesting sort of journey.

So my first career was actually in the music industry.

So, so, so I, uh, after I working in the record store, you know, and, and, and actually managing it and, and we ended up actually having, I think, four different record stores in different communities in, here in Ontario, in Canada.

Um, after that I actually moved to Montreal and worked in the music industry, and I sold records and, and, and CDs and, and, and cassettes to, to stores across, uh, Quebec and, and also some stores in eastern Ontario.

And I did that for a number of years until-- I was doing very well until actually, you know, I was actually Napstered out because of the, of, of the, of the huge, you know, changes that happened early on with the advent of digital technology a- a- and, uh, streaming of music and, uh, it, it actually made the business model of, of records in stores, you know, change completely.

This is, we're in the stream, and there's no foreseeable when it's gonna stop.

Is there anything else sort of in terms of that shift that needs to happen for people to work in that complex environment rather than sort of fight against it, I

Yeah, well, that sort of brings to the model, I guess, Tamara, if you want me to sort of go into that a little bit.

Because what I realized, I must admit, talking to people and involving my own views on leadership and how people actually manage to get through it these days, because it is far more complex being a leader and actually being an employee these days, right? So what I realized from all my discussions with people is that they're practicing this way to be able to navigate the complexity through sense-making.

And so in my conversations with people, first in my dissertation, and then, you know, continuing with conversations in Messi and in other forums, I am seeing that people are using, you know, an inner and outer sense-making model.

And that comes back to actually what we were talking about earlier, that people, first of all, have to make sense of themselves, right? They have to observe and be aware of their emotions.

They have to be able to regulate sometimes their own responses.

They have to be able to be resilient sometimes and actually pause as well.

right?

How does a model like this become operationalized so that somebody could do something with it?

Yeah, well, that's a great question.

And there are lots of different things you can do.

But the model is basically on, you know, it's two things that have purpose at the center.

One is actually your inner sense making, which is actually doing a lot of work that you would do, perhaps with a coach, perhaps by yourself, actually, if you were to delve into it.

into the, you know, literature and improper exercises.

Those are things that, you know, are getting to know, you know, how you respond, what triggers you, what are your biases, what are your parrots on your shoulder that maybe, you know, um, um, shape, um, show up when you're actually under stress, you know, what are in some ways your, your, your, your family ghosts that are actually haunting you and, and keeping you and, and, and, uh, Sometimes, you know, informing how you respond as well and making certain that you'll be able to have some time to reflect on that, too.

Can you bring it down to earth for us and give us an example of applying this in the real world?

Well,

certainly.

And I'll try and give you a little bit of a snapshot of my journey.

Maybe it's like a photograph book while I'll focus on a couple of different pictures that are in it.

And first of all, I wanted to just say that, you know, I feel very lucky in my life that I, in some ways, won the lottery.

And I think I've won the lottery because I'm in Canada, which is a great country to be in.

I have two parents that were loving me.

And Daniel, in your conversations, what kinds of conversations are you having?