left winger.

He is a centrist Zionist who declared this union to be a statement of Zionism, who's a member of the security establishment, basically.

And he brings a lot of centrist Zionist credibility to what had hitherto been seen as an Arab party.

Now, the truth is, this is not misaligned with Mansour Abbas himself.

And this is something else that anyone interested, or as I've suggested before, hyper-interested in Israel might pay attention to.

Mansour Abbas is an Israeli Arab politician who indeed comes from the Islamist movement, and you would think therefore problematic for Jews, who says, I accept Israel as a Jewish state.

indeed appears to embrace it and appears to be aware that a Western minded State run by the Jews in Israel Has a pretty good chance of being a better run country than other countries in the Middle East and he simply wants The Arabs to get their fair share and that is extremely legitimate It's not unlike you know black politicians in America wanting that community to have their fair share and there's there have been problems there and there are problems with the Jews in Israel so people abroad are who believe in these libels that Israel is an apartheid nation might pay attention to the fact that here is the very senior Jewish Israeli and the very senior Arabs really running together, unafraid to attach the word Zionism to their joint effort.

I mean, what do you see from people who are looking at Israel from an intellectual perspective, but who clearly are quite negative about Israel as they view the possibility that this is a different Israel, not the one that they are trying to sell.

The flotillas, have they become a ritual that both sides know the choreography to at this point in time? Are they more performative than anything else right now?

I think for the third time my answer to your question is yes, they're obviously a ritual and they're obviously a stunt.

And the amount of aid they're carrying in, whenever they really are carrying aid, is not g- what's gonna save the Gazans.

Um, and furthermore, when aid comes in, whether the, the activists are treated well or mistreated, uh, the, the idea is that then it's sent on to Gaza.

Um, and I know not enough aid is getting through.

Uh, I, I think of course it's a performance that stems from the overall, uh, issue which is not theatrical, which is that Israel fears a Hamas from Gaza because Hamas exists to attack Israel, and that's the reason for the blockade.

That, and by the way, is not just I- Israel's but also Egypt's from the south.

Uh, do you think that Israel cares about the, uh, the, the international condemnation that's come out, uh, in the last couple of days a- at all? And do you think that they're gonna handle any future flotillas differently?

The flotillas, have they become a ritual that both sides know the choreography to at this point in time? Are they more performative than anything else right now?

I think for the third time, my answer to your question is yes.

They're obviously a ritual, and they're obviously a stunt, and the amount of aid they're carrying in whenever they really are carrying aid is not g- what's going to save the Gazans.

Um, and furthermore, when aid comes in, whether the, the activists are treated well or mistreated-Uh, the, the idea is that then it's sent on to Gaza.

Um, and I know not enough aid is getting through.

Uh, I, I think of course it's a performance that stems from the overall, uh, issue, which is not theatrical, which is that Israel fears a Hamas from Gaza because Hamas exists to attack Israel, and that's the reason for the blockade.

That, and by the way, is not just I- Israel's, but also Egypt's from the south.

Uh, do you think that Israel cares about the, uh, the, the international condemnation that's come out, uh, in the last couple of days at, at all? And do you think that they're gonna handle any future flotillas differently?

Yeah.

Um, and so we did that.

That was called the FOUR study.

Um, and, and it was a great first study because everyone was prepared to randomizeSurgeons had randomized, ED doctors had randomized, parents had randomized.

No one really cared about buccal fractures.

But it gave us this big network, this big infrastructure, working with PERUKI, working with ED consultants, working with, um, children's orthopedic surgeons.

Everyone kind of got together to say, "Look, let's do research in children's orthopedics," which was fab.

Mm.

Uh, does it care? Is it worried about its relationship with, with Europe, seeing that these two men are European nationals?

I think it does.

Uh, and I also think it doesn't as much as it should.

I think in Israel there is, uh, a, an exaggerated sense that, uh, Europe is lost, uh, I, which is false.

Europe is Israel's primary trading partner.

Europe is critical for Israel.

Israel remains an associate member, uh, in a way, o- of, of the European Union.

I- is America and Donald Trump providing political cover, and is the Israeli government using that to, to take actions like this against the flotilla?

Dan, is this unpopularity all down to one man? Is this Benjamin Netanyahu, or is this, as I suspect, you know, the fact that Israel is now much more openly racist and much more right-wing than it ever has been?

I'm not sure I'd agree with, uh, those assertions, but it's much, much about one, one man, yes.

I, I think Israel faces a major fork in the road, not just in, in Europe's attitude towards, uh, towards it and, and the world's attitude, but its entire reality.

And down one road goes the Netanyahu coalition, extreme right, uh, uh, ult- ultra-religious, uh, and at loggerheads with, uh, the region and the world continuing.

A- and down the other path goes a major course correction, which I think would happen and would impact, uh, how the world deals with Israel.

Now look, some, some of the opposition to Israel is, is, is visceral and permanent, but I think what is pushing things in a direction of an anti-Israel dynamic is indeed the, the, the actions that the Netanyahu government has taken, especially in the past couple of years, but also its whole zeitgeist.

Netanyahu is part of this global cabal of elected autocrats.

But my question to you is this: Is this a conversation that's happening in Israel? Uh, y- are Israelis worried about the shift, or do they think their relationships with Europe and America are solid?

Dan, is this unpopularity all down to one man? Is this Benjamin Netanyahu, or is this, as I suspect, you know, the fact that Israel is now much more openly racist and much more right-wing than it ever has been?

I'm not sure I'd agree with, uh, those assertions, but it's much, much about one, one man, yes.

I, I think Israel faces a major fork in the road, not just in, in Europe's attitude towards, uh, towards it and, and the world's attitude, but its entire reality.

And down one road goes the Netanyahu coalition, extreme right, uh, uh, ult-ultra-religious, uh, and at loggerheads with, uh, the region and the world continuing.

And, and down the other path goes a major course correction, which I think would happen and would impact, uh, how the world deals with Israel.

Now, look, some, some of the opposition to Israel is, is, is visceral and permanent, but I think what is pushing things in a direction of an anti-Israel dynamic is indeed the, the, the actions that the Netanyahu government has taken, especially in the past couple of years, but also its whole zeitgeist.

Netanyahu is part of this global cabal of elected autocrats.

But my question to you is this: is this a conversation that's happening in Israel? Uh, uh, are Israelis worried about the shift, or do they think their relationships with Europe and America are solid?

But do you think from the beginning, Israel and the US have had somewhat different goals in all of this, particularly on that key issue of whether there should be regime change?

change?Yeah, I think, uh, th- the government of Israel has certainly concluded that regime change would be highly desirable.

And I think in this regard, uh, rather unusual for the Netanyahu government, uh, they are not at, uh, at misaligned with the Israeli public.

I think most Israelis think that the Islamic Republic regime is illegitimate, has, uh, threatened them far too much, threatens the Arab world far too much, uh, massacres its own people far too much, and they really do want regime change.

They have lost all hope in dealing with this government, rightly or wrongly, whether you think the war is legal or illegal.

Uh, from the American side, uh, uh, Trump doesn't care about democracy.

He explicitly walked away from democracy promotion in, uh, the December national security strategy.

Uh, and he doesn't want to lose an extraordinary opportunity that he now has to destroy Iran.