Can you speak a little bit to this career evolution of The Sporkful and how the show has evolved?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think you hit on it, Catherine.

I think the evolution of the show has been a combination of like seeing what other people are doing and what direction trends are going in.

And then also being like, well, how can I be influenced by that without copying it? You know, I think that we all, any creative person, it's okay to be influenced by work.

I think it's great to be influenced by work that other people are doing, but you still want to be able to make it your own.

So I think it's that.

And, you know, yes, the sportful in the first couple of years was very sort of absurdist.

And so I'm curious, as all these new projects and ideas come into your head or more opportunities present themselves, how do you decide what does belong in the Dan Pashman universe and what doesn't? Like, what does that look like? And maybe how has that evolved?

Do you?

[laughs] I have laid awake at night thinking about delicious sandwiches and how I would make them if I was gonna make them, for sure.

The two most basic principles of sandwich construction are l- are like my version of like Newton's...

I think it's his first law of motion, force equals mass times acceleration, which I interpret to mean that you wanna build a sandwich such that the force of the bite does not cause the mass of the sandwich to accelerate out the back.

And there's two things you gotta really be thinking about.

One is how crusty is this bread? How much bite force will be required to pierce the bread and get into the center of the sandwich? And then the second variable you wanna consider is how slippery are the sandwich fillings? And h- and where...

when they are slippery, can we keep the t- keep multiple slippery components from being on top of each other? How can we add friction to prevent slippage? And, uh, and also, at the same time, as you say, Mike, we also need to be worried about soggage.

And a bottle of Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio.

Of course, that is the 1991 release of the Honeycrisp apple.

Yeah.

The Honeycrisp was kind of the first big breakout produce star that came out of these changes.

It was developed at the University of Minnesota, and in 1991, they started licensing out Honeycrisp trees to growers for a one-time fee of around a dollar a tree.

And they have now made north of $20 million from it.

A couple decades later, the University of Washington did even better with their Cosmic Crisp apple.

They've made more than 30 million bucks.

But, okay, why is this happening? Well, part of the story has to do with growers trying to escape this classic economic pitfall known as the commodity trap.

That's, that's a lot of really tiny sandwiches

Well, they're, they don't even need to be sandwiches.

They can be just cubes of steak and cheese and fruit and chocolate.

It could be anything you want.

It just has to be bite-sized so you don't need to cut it up

It's the experience, right?

I think that's right, Chris, and, and since you so generously offered to provide that experience to me, um, I'm just gonna start wandering the woods of Vermont, calling your name, and, uh, I'll find you there, and I assume the table will be set.

I wonder if you will tell this story for our listeners.

Yeah, I...

Story is giving it a lot of credit, but it's just sort of a funny anecdote, I guess, which is that I think I recorded something for this podcast the longest, shortest time that Andrea worked on.

And it was about how, well, I hope my parents don't listen to this.

No offense.

But when I was little, every Sunday morning, my dad would take me and my brother out for breakfast.

Sometimes it was to our local diner, a group in New Jersey.

And then, I don't know, the story – the story is so fascinating, but I guess I kind of wanted to just talk to you, Dan, about like, what was interesting about this to you? Why did you want to talk about this?

What made you want to do a podcast?

Well, it was always my dream to host my own radio show.

Like I ho- I had a show in, a college radio show, and I graduated from college in 1999, and I wanted to host a radio show.

Uh, so I started off like as a low-level producer, thinking I would work my way up.

And long story short, like when I came out of college, the radio industry was kind of in decline.

Internet and technology were on the rise.

There were multiple recessions.

Yeah.

What made you want to do a podcast?

Well, it was always my dream to host my own radio show.

Like I h- I had a show in, uh, college radio show, and I graduated from college in 1999, and I wanted to host a radio show.

Uh, so I started off like as a low-level producer, thinking I would work my way up.

And long story short, like when I came out of college, the radio industry was kind of in decline.

Internet and technology were on the rise.

There were multiple recessions.

Yeah

Right.

Turns out that the way that we define our foods has legal implications.

It has tax implications.

So for example, in the state of Colorado, certain bars are required to serve sandwiches and snacks in order to maintain their liquor licenses.

So the- the bars went to the- the law officials and said, "What does that mean? What are sandwiches?" So a ruling was issued that said sandwiches, as used in articles 47 and 48 of Title 12 CRS, are defined as single serving items such as hamburgers, hot dogs, frozen pizzas, burritos, chicken wings, et cetera.

So are there other places where sandwiches are misdescribed?

Well, so- so this is another interesting, uh, bit of case law I thought I would share with you, Chris.

Uh, this happened a few years back in your home state of Massachusetts.

You had to really believe that there was something there, that there was a real potential in investing years plus in telling a story that nobody was gonna hear for a long time.

Yes, I did think there was real potential.

I mean, like I said, I was sort of inspired by a startup.

And my number one priority was to tell a great story.

My number two priority was to invent a great pasta shape.

My number three priority was that it would become a successful business.

And I must have said to my producer, Emma, five times, I was like, it almost doesn't matter if the pasta shape is good or not.

Yes.

(laughs)

Well, you know, I, I don't know if you feel this way, Chris, you know, 'cause I, I w- I worked in news radio for a long time before I got into the world of food, and I always was passionate about food as a hobby, but when I decided to make food my career, I was worried that I would fall out of love with it, that if it became a job, I wouldn't get the same amount of pleasure from eating and cooking.

Did you ever worry about that in your life?

Yeah.

And that makes those of us who cook Thanksgiving at home feel like, "Wait, am I doing it wrong? Is there a better way? Maybe the thing I make every year isn't good enough." And so you feel inadequate and you feel pressure to change up your game.

But the wheel of the anxiety is that then our readers and listeners, and they want me to say something new on Thanksgiving on The Sporkful, a- and, and-