... a rejection of you in the moment?

Um, that's a good question.

I...

This is, this is probably the area that, how I view things may be a little bit different, is like I understood my parents love me, but whether or not they love my Blackness and how that showed up felt like another conversation.

And having that understanding also became a space of like, well, that is part of who I am.

Hmm.

So it gave me a level of understanding as far as what to expect.

And that's not saying, like, it shows up holistically that way everywhere.

Mm-hmm

... like, we didn't expect this." But it was actually years and a lifetime in the making.

And I say that through, through my lived experiences, um, growing up Black in a predominantly white community, growing up Black in an adoptive family.

Um, my family is all white.

And the experiences navigating police, the experiences navigating racism, um, having to educate myself and, and learn and do research, and auditing graduate classes at Berkeley, like, all of those experiences ultimately led up to that moment of protesting in 2016, in addition to seeing the, the political climate of what was happening.

You know, this is on the back of, of Mike Brown being killed and Eric Garner and Tamir Rice, and then more recently into 2016 was Mario Woods, Freddie Gray, Alton Sterling, Philando Castile, and that, that's the backdrop that leads into the protest.

Similarly to the football side, like when I first start in the NFL, that's 15 plus years in the making.

Mm-hmm

How did you rec- reconcile with that? Like, did you feel guilt behind it or did you feel, like, supported?

The, the first thing that I think about in relation to that is Curt Flood.

And Curt Flood had a, a quote when he was fighting for free agency, and he was fighting for free agency because at that point in time, if you were a player and a team drafted you, that team owned your rights for your lifetime.

And he fought against that, and one of the quotes that he had was something to the effect of, "A well-paid slave is a slave nonetheless." And [audience clapping] And I think about this in relation to the, the parallels.

Um, the NFL Combine in many ways becomes a space where they are testing your obedience.

Um, what you see or what is broadcast publicly are the moments of players going out and running the 40, doing the vertical jump, doing all of their skills and the drills.

There, there's three days prior to that, that you're doing interviews, you're doing medical tests.

How did that moment show you how powerless players felt to the system of the NFL?

Can you just talk about how your thinking changed and what changed it?

Yeah.

So going back to 2016, um, a lot of what I had seen in politics and also looking at, um, some of the historical pe- perspectives around politics was politics hadn't changed a lot for the Black community.

Um, there, there are pockets where you see this show up, but largely see people's needs being unmet.

And also getting into a space of, uh, constantly talking about like, "What are the lesser of two evils?" And that's a, a very typical conversation.

And in 2016, I was like, "Well, I don't, I don't wanna throw my support behind people that I don't believe in fully." And so 2016, I didn't vote.

Um, I've since changed that, that perspective, and look at voting as a, a tool for us to be able to use.

I don't wanna speak for you.

Can you just talk about how your thinking changed, and what changed it?

Yeah.

So going back to 2016, um, a lot of what I had seen in politics, and also looking at, um, some of the historical pe- perspectives around politics, was politics hadn't changed a lot for the Black community.

Um, there, there are pockets where you see this show up, but largely, you see people's needs being unmet.

And also getting into a space of, uh, constantly talking about, like, what are the lesser of two evils, and that's a, a very typical conversation.

And in 2016, I was like, "Well, I don't, I don't wanna throw my support behind people that I don't believe in fully." And so 2016, I didn't vote.

Um, I've since changed [chuckles] that, that perspective, and look at voting as a, a tool for us to be able to use.

I don't wanna speak for you.

what was that turning point and like recognize that even just football, like, you know, I'm more than just, you know, each snap.

Football didn't give me identity, but it did give me community.

Uh, and gave me community that I didn't have elsewhere.

Uh, it's a lot more of us in football.

So that, that was a place culturally that I was like, Oh, I see more of myself here.

Um, You can get to a place where you can have success and be in a great position and also look around and be like, why can't everybody else have an opportunity to do this? And that may not be football, but they should have the opportunity to go out and thrive and feel safe and not be threatened by police.

They may get killed.

What do you know? Why not speak up? Why not speak up?

And I'm, I guess I'm curious on your end, like, what would you say to people who have that fear that is so purely about what the cost will be versus maybe what the outcome will be?

Yeah.

I, I think we have to reframe the risk assessment, and oftentimes it's, "What do I have to lose?" But there's also the question of what do we have to gain? And within that risk, the opportunity for that outcome, to your point, that is significant.

And in many ways the parallel of that risk is while there may be personal risk in this, what is the risk to the rest of our community if we don't take action? Like, does that mean another person doesn't make it home? Does that mean another person doesn't have healthcare? Another person's incarcerated? Um, another person isn't able to put food on the table? All of those become risks of inaction.

So I think taking it from that perspective and that standpoint allows you to go out and say, "Well, I don't want that risk.

I'm not, I'm not accepting of that, so I'm gonna go take action against it." Now, on the personal side, this is where I think the collective action becomes important.

To your point, if everybody steps back, then it's like, "Oh, well you did this, so we, we can isolate you." If everybody steps up, then it becomes, well, we can't single anybody out.

Yeah.

And can I have you pick up and read from there?

Yeah.

I stopped short, and the three boys stared back at me.

They were all white, like almost everybody in Turlock.

The boys exchanged words with each other.

Then two of them sprinted towards me.

The other one went off deeper into the garage.

Hmm.

Yep.

So for me, having that understanding of Malcolm's journey, his father being a Garveyite and a follower of Marcus Garvey, him growing, developing, um, joining the Nation of Islam, but constantly seeking truth in how he advances Black people, how he addresses systemic issues, and having pride in that, being bold in that.

That took me down a path that led me to discover Fanon, um, starting to dive in and research Huey and the Panthers.

It took me down Baldwin.

It took me down Steve Biko and Angela Davis and Ella Baker.

It took me down a long lineage of Black revolutionaries and Black leaders that put into context all of my experiences that I'd had to that point, that previously I had a very high level understanding of, but I didn't have the depth and the historical perspective to be able to put it into context.

So, specifically thinking about that is getting stopped by police.

Mm.

When you finally took that knee, what was the feeling? Where was your head?

Uh, I had a few different thoughts.

Was thinking about all the people before me and the sacrifices that they had made, how far they were willing to go, whether that's the Montgomery bus boycotts, whether that's Rosa Parks, whether that's Malcolm X, whether that's MLK.

We saw people willing to go extraordinary lengths because they believed that we could be better, and they believed that we could bring about rights and equity and justice for everyone.

And to think about the sacrifices that people before us had made, if they're willing to go that far, how far should we be willing to go? What is the cost and the expense of doing nothing? I got to see different cities respond differently to me.

We went to Buffalo, New York, saw people light my jersey on fire and throw it in front of our bus as we're pulling in for the game.

I saw people with shirts that they were selling that had me within the scope of a sniper rifle.

What did it feel like to be the brunt of such anger and, and real-life death threats?

What were you hoping to achieve with the protests?

To collectively move us forward as a society.

very specifically fighting against police killing Black folks, but also looking at systemic oppression holistically to get society thinking and moving in the direction of addressing these issues to create a better society.

We have to do something different, and there has to be motion and momentum and movement around that.

When you finally took that knee...

What was the feeling? Where was your head? I had a few different thoughts.

I was thinking about all the people before me and the sacrifices that they had made, how far they were willing to go, whether that's the Montgomery bus boycotts, whether that's Rosa Parks, whether that's Malcolm X, whether that's MLK.

What did it feel like to be the brunt of such anger and real-life death threats? I

Can you just briefly tell us what happened and why you wanted to open the book with this story?

Yeah.

We opened The Perilous Fight with this moment from my childhood where, you know, like any kid in the, in the middle of summer, you are outside in the neighborhood running around, and some of the neighbor kids, uh, were staying at their house as I was walking home.

And being this, uh, eight-year-old kid, um, walking down the street, and the kids were a little bit older than me.

And, um, I, I realized as I was trying to get closer to, to see if they were still playing and if I could play with them, um, they grabbed me and tied me to a rose tree, um, in the front yard.

And it was a, a moment that, one you don't expect, I wasn't prepared for.

Um, I hadn't been taught about this as a, a young Black boy in a white family.

But that you do owe something to everybody else who's wearing that uniform and, and to your employer." What do, what do you say to that?

Mm-hmm.

Um, to give a little bit of context, I mean, leading up to that point, uh, he had worn my jersey on Saturday Night Live, publicly had been supportive.

Um, I had reached out and got connected to him, um, and tried to meet with him, tried to get on a phone call.

Wasn't willing to do that, which look, I, I understand.

People are busy.

I just wanted to show gratitude and appreciation.

Um, they had tried to recruit me to Roc Nation, um, which ultimately didn't do, and some of that is covered in the book as well.

Mm-hmm.

What were you hoping to achieve with the protests?

To collectively move us forward as a society.

very specifically fighting against police killing Black folks, but also looking at systemic oppression holistically to get society thinking and moving in the direction of addressing these issues to create a better society.

We have to do something different, and there has to be motion and momentum and movement around that.

When you finally took that knee...

What was the feeling? Where was your head? I had a few different thoughts.

I was thinking about all the people before me and the sacrifices that they had made, how far they were willing to go, whether that's the Montgomery bus boycotts, whether that's Rosa Parks, whether that's Malcolm X, whether that's MLK.

What did it feel like to be the brunt of such anger and real-life death threats? I

What were you hoping to achieve with the protests?

To collectively move us forward as a society.

very specifically fighting against police killing Black folks, but also looking at systemic oppression holistically to get society thinking and moving in the direction of addressing these issues to create a better society.

We have to do something different, and there has to be motion and momentum and movement around that.

When you finally took that knee...

What was the feeling? Where was your head? I had a few different thoughts.

I was thinking about all the people before me and the sacrifices that they had made, how far they were willing to go, whether that's the Montgomery bus boycotts, whether that's Rosa Parks, whether that's Malcolm X, whether that's MLK.

What did it feel like to be the brunt of such anger and real-life death threats? I

Like, how does this work?

I mean, a normal scenario is your agent is reaching out to a team, typically the GM or the coach.

They bring you in for a workout.

They evaluate you.

They give you a yes, no.

That was not the case for me.

We had been reaching out to every team in the NFL for years.

But did you ever just feel for your safety? And the safety of your family, for that matter.

And I'm, I guess I'm curious on your end, like, what would you say to people who have that fear that is so purely about what the cost will be versus maybe what the outcome will be?

Yeah.

Uh, I think we have to reframe the risk assessment, and oftentimes it's, "What do I have to lose?" But there's also the question of what do we have to gain? And within that risk, the opportunity for that outcome, to your point, that is significant.

And in many ways, the parallel of that risk is while there may be personal risk in this, what is the risk to the rest of our community if we don't take action? Like, does that mean another person doesn't make it home? Does that mean another person doesn't have healthcare? Another person's incarcerated? Um, another person isn't able to put food on the table? All of those become risks of inaction.

So I think taking it from that perspective and that standpoint allows you to go out and say, "Well, I don't want that risk.

I'm not, I'm not accepting of that, so I'm gonna go take action against it." Now, on the personal side, this is where I think the collective action becomes important.

To your point, if everybody steps back, then it's like, "Oh, well you did this, so we, we can isolate you." If everybody steps up, then it becomes, "Well, we can't single anybody out," so there's, the risk becomes drastically less because they can't target everybody.

Yeah.

I feel like it was so... clear to me i i feel like my experience being i think a female athlete but being a woman and being being gay i was like okay i get what we're like i feel like the flare went up and we're like got it we we got i i get what's happening um we're this is a mechanism that you gave us to talk about this thing that is true and that we all know is happening because we've been seeing this happen for, you know, definitely just the string of high-profile murders that you just named, you know, Trayvon and Mike Brown and the uprising and Ferguson and Black Lives Matter and then so many more murders Did you mean it like that? Or was this more of like a personal, like this is just what I'm going to do? Did you mean for this to be collective? I

think it's a both and.

I think in part, it has to start on the personal.

Like you have to have conviction and belief before you can ever step out in that way.

The second part of that is you are trying to build community around it.

You are trying to build movement around it because that's how you affect change.

You're not going to do that individually.

Right.

Yeah

... that didn't feel right to me.

Um, and I tried to create space for other people to be able to step into that.

Is that a area that things could have diverted and, and gone a little astray at times? Yes.

But the, the implication that I was thinking through around that is like, I know they're trying to attack me individually and discredit me individually to try to discredit the movement, the issues that are trying to be addressed, and like, is that the best approach? Um, so that's one piece.

And the second piece is in having detractors and people that weren't moving in good faith, I tried to be very intentional in not going tit for tat publicly around it, because I didn't want that to become the conversation.

Yeah

... [laughs] like you have an incentive to make sure that people are taken care of so society continues if you're looking at it from a purely self-interested standpoint.

Mm.

And so I, I, I wondered, did your, did your mom ever say what she felt in that moment? She didn't say what she felt.

Yeah.

But it was, what she shared was it was a quick response of like, "Hey, don't say that." And that was like the end.

So but to your point around, like, how you internalize that or how you take that with you- Yeah ... makes me think of when I was older and, uh, reading Fanon and Black Skin, White Mask.

Mm-hmm.

And he talks about it through a lens of colonization and how predominant culture, in this instance white culture, the impact and influence that has on identity.

"...

What was happening that had this bubbling up for you?

Yeah, a lifetime of experience that led to it.

Also, I've been doing more reading, more research.

The autobiography of Malcolm X was a huge turning point for me that opened a lot of doors to knowledge and discovery.

And in the midst of that, we're also seeing Mike Brown and Ferguson.

We're seeing Eric Garner.

We've seen Tamir Rice.

Since that time, have you seen change?

Let's go there, and then I have another question about how that's probably starting earlier because of NIL and college, but let's start with the first piece over

there.

Yeah.

I have had a lot of those conversations directly with players, and I think the piece that comes to mind here is Players need to be able to take collective action.

When you see an issue and you know it exists, and when you want to go out and address it, you have to take action against that.

If you have integrity, if you are the person that you say you are, if you are a person that wants to work to the benefit of everyone collectively and not just your own self-interest.

You should be taking action right now.

They gave me the answers that I was looking for during the most tragic time in my life.

But let's start with the first piece of it.

Yeah.

Um, I have, I have had a lot of those conversations directly with players.

And I think the piece that, that comes to mind here is players need to be able to take collective action.

Um, when, when you see an issue, and you know it exists, and when you wanna go out and address it, you have to take action against that.

Um, it-- If you have integrity, if you are the person that you say you are, um, if you are a person that wants to work to the benefit of everyone collectively and not just your own self-interest, you should be taking action right now.

Um, now, you should organize around that because the part that, that the ownership class does not want you to understand or fully appreciate, which is why they take targeted actions like the ones they took against me, um, and in the past have taken, um, against others, is they don't want you to realize the power that you collectively have.

They gave me the answers that I was looking for during the most tragic time in my life."

started playing

sports as early as I can remember.

But then when you actually get into organized sports and you start competing, you have people that you're looking up to and trying to understand what does competing and what does being great look like? And you get to see it show up in different facets.

And for me, seeing an Allen Iverson and a Randy Moss and a Ken Griffey breaking barriers both on the field in their respective sports, but also culturally, was something I was like, oh, this is a model that I can build off of.

in part because they were just being who they were.

And they didn't conform or assimilate as part of that.

And that was something that it took them beyond just the sport.

I want to know what you think of the league now.

What are some one or two moments within this book or stories that you tell that made you ready for the moment that happened in 2016?

There's a couple moments that immediately come to mind.

Um, one is the story that we open the book with, um, where, uh, neighborco- neighborhood kids tie me to a rose tree.

Um, I'm Black, adopted to a white family, predominantly white community.

Kids that I thought were my friends, um, throughout the neighborhood, um, ultimately did this.

And in that moment, and in the moments after that, was the realization of, oh, you have to navigate this by yourself, and no one is going to look out for you and protect you in this.

And having that awareness and being able to navigate society in that way became really important.

[laughs]