Have you seen the kind of advocacy needed for chaplaincy? in these last years, or do you feel like it's still the same goal? Or what do you hope that it accomplishes today when we celebrate Spiritual Care Week or Pastor Care Week, depending on how they're called in our organizations?

Yeah, I think the advocacy is...

Maybe even, I think in early years, it was getting the entrance of chaplaincy into the medical facilities, hospitals, research, so forth and so on.

So I think early on, it was getting the foot in the door.

I think during the latter part of my career, it probably is very much still true today.

And that's why I went to research.

It's justifying our existence because it comes down to monetary.

the spiritual health professionals and one of the things that i i've i've seen from some of the people i've worked with is they're like yeah we we love doing blessing of the hands we love making sure that people know what we're doing but we're just tired sometimes it'd be nice for us to be poured into you