From my understanding, you got into this through cognitive science, and can you talk about that journey and what drew you from cognitive science into learning and development?

So I s- was doing tutoring on campus and got a job doing the computer support for the office doing tutoring, and I saw...

I, I hate to tell you how long ago this was, but computer supporting learning was a relatively new idea.

And but I saw the connection, said, "Hey, maybe this is worth studying," and th- we had a program where you could design your own major.

We didn't have a major in that, of course, but we had a program where you could design your own major, and I ended up designing my own major, and it's been my career ever since, supporting learning through technology, and it turns out technology turns out to be conversations as well as devices, as well as lots of other things.

And my first job out of college was designing and programming educational computer games, and that notion of engagement has remained a c- recurrent theme because it's relevant to, to learning.

But I realized we didn't know enough.

Or if I'm reviewing an NDA, and I haven't done it in six months, but we have a ches- checklist for clauses to look for, that's something that helps me in that flow of work.