Had they attempted to, what means would they have used? Good morning.

Good morning there, Nick.

Yes, I'm pretty confident that they have tried to interfere in our politics going back as far as the Scottish referendum in 2014, which was their first sort of step into this space.

In 2016, there were various ways in which they were interfering.

We had a source soon after the referendum in 2017 saying, who reported to us that this had been championed, if you like, by the head of the GRU, Russian military intelligence, within the Kremlin.

That's, of course, the service that was responsible for the Skripal attack in Salisbury.

And that they had adopted various means to try and push the vote towards... leave, including, for example, injecting large amounts of money into the system.

How do you view Russia? How do you view Russians, friend

Please go ahead.

Yeah.

So in general, with intelligence, you're not looking to bring people into court to charge them with almost 99% certainty.

It's not the way it works.

And for all sorts of reasons, that's the case, including source protection in particular, which is paramount.

I mean, I remember going back, you know, if you go back into the 1980s, I think there was a, a diplomat you had in Vienna, I think called Felix Bloch, who was pretty well, he was photographed, I believe, taking a, a suitcase off a, or a briefcase off a Russian intelligence officer.

That still wasn't enough to bring him to court and to try him in front of a jury.

Mm

... with Trump and Putin that was genuinely incriminating, and you know, you were one of the main incriminators with that dossier, um, if there was something genuinely there that had been established beyond any doubt, we would know about it by now, wouldn't we? (transition music plays) Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. Our sponsors mean we can bring it to you for free. Support for today's show comes from Beam, who can help you out with an issue of utmost importance: sleep. Good sleep, as I can confirm, is the foundation of physical and mental health. Our daily performance depends on it. That's why we are delighted to talk about Beam's Dream Powder, a science-backed, healthy hot cocoa for sleep. It's tested for high-quality efficiency and formulated to ease your body into rest, supporting the four stages of the sleep cycle to help you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. Many other sleep aids cause next day grogginess, but Dream contains a powerful all-natural blend of reishi, magnesium, L-theanine, apigenin, and melatonin. It helps you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. If you, like me, need a good lie-down after an Uncensored debate, you can try Beam's best-selling Dream Powder with 40% off for a limited time when you go to shopbeam.com/piers and use code PIERS at checkout. That's shopbeam, B-E-A-M,.com/piers, P-I-E-R-S, and promo code PIERS at checkout. Now, on with the show. (transition music plays)

I think you have to look beyond just Trump. I mean, the dossier itself covered not just Trump, but also other figures around him, particularly Manafort, who was the head of his campaign. And I think the idea that Manafort and Kilimnik, if you remember, the, the Russian intelligence officer who he worked with in Ukraine, were involved in some kind of corporation or collusion in 2016 is for the birds. I mean, I think it's very clear that Manafort was probably trading campaign data and so on with Kilimnik, and in fact, came back soon after the election, I think in the transition period, with a very sort of pro-Russian Ukrainian peace plan, as he called it, which he presented to Trump. There was also, of course, all the links between Mike Flynn and the Russian ambassador in the transitional period. And if you go back be- before that, way back to 2008 when Trump sold one of his properties in Sunny Isles, Florida to a Russian oligarch for, assessed to be double the money that it was worth, and that got Trump out of a difficulty in paying back and avoid- avoiding bankruptcy. Um, I believe at the time, Michael Cohen said that Trump had commented to him that he was indebted to, to Putin for getting him off that hook. So I think there's a lot there, and it, it doesn't just involve Trump. It involves a whole range of different actors around him at the time.

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Well, I've never lied about any of this, of course, and it's been tested in court many times. As you'll be aware, I've been involved in several high court trials involving this and won them all. So I, I don't think there's any basis upon which to think that we were deliberately lying or misleading anybody, and in fact, of course, the dossier wasn't meant to be made public at all. So I think that that is going down the wrong path. In terms of our source base in Russia, obviously we don't talk about that, but I've made a successful business over the last 15 years over, over running sources in Russia and China and other places, producing intelligence to meet high standards of corporate requirements. So I think the idea that, you know, I'm out there lying and making stuff up is ludicrous. Uh, of course, intelligence isn't always entirely accurate. Intelligence reflects the sources, it reflects their motivations, reflects their access, and of course, even in a system like Russia, you have people being dishonest with each other. If you sat in a room when Putin was talking to Shoigu about the situation on the battlefield in Ukraine, you may well not be listening to the truth, but you're listening to a truth which is upon which Putin makes his policy decisions. And a lot of the conflict in Ukraine as it's unfolded and Putin's conduct of it has been based, I would argue, uh, on distorted information being passed up the command chain to him and telling him things he wants to hear.